Charly Cummings is an auctioneer, cattleman and entrepreneur from Yates Center, Kansas. An LMA World Champion Auctioneer, Charly continues to be a proponent of the auction method of marketing cattle, land and other agricultural products.
As we continue our discussion of beef cattle marketing, Charly shares his first-hand perspective of how producers can study trends, consult with marketing experts and formulate a plan to best market their cattle. In addition, he shares his belief that producers need to research the issues, consider various viewpoints, communicate and then develop some unity to address marketing challenges and help sustain our farms and ranches into the future.
If you haven't already, listen to Episodes 3 and 8 as we continue this topic of beef cattle marketing.
www.superiorlivestock.com
Vaughn Roth Land Brokers
Charly Cummings is an auctioneer, cattleman and entrepreneur from Yates Center, Kansas. An LMA World Champion Auctioneer, Charly continues to be a proponent of the auction method of marketing cattle, land and other agricultural products.
As we continue our discussion of beef cattle marketing, Charly shares his first-hand perspective of how producers can study trends, consult with marketing experts and formulate a plan to best market their cattle. In addition, he shares his belief that producers need to research the issues, consider various viewpoints, communicate and then develop some unity to address marketing challenges and help sustain our farms and ranches into the future.
If you haven't already, listen to Episodes 3 and 8 as we continue this topic of beef cattle marketing.
www.superiorlivestock.com
Vaughn Roth Land Brokers
Well, thank you for joining us on this episode, 10 of practically ranching. This week's guest is Charly Cummings from Yates center, Kansas. Charly is an auctioneer. He's a cattleman. He's an entrepreneur, he represents hundreds of producers throughout the year and sales, hundreds of thousands of cattle on their sale day. Whether it be for superior livestock video, at a few local sale barns that he still helps out or at seedstock sales, across the country and throughout the year, Charlie has a keen understanding of, of the market week to week and day to day. And he also, as a cattleman, who's raising these cattle... He has a cow herd of his own runs a few year lings and helps a lot of other folks put together groups, cattle, both on sale day, but also throughout the production cycle, he has, a pretty good, good handle on the market. I've sold bowls to Charlie. I've coached youth basketball against him. I've watched him sell cattle. I've witnessed him sell real estate and I can assure you, he is a competitor. And as we talk about competitive marketing, and also competitive selling of our cattle. I think that he fits this really well. And, and so I'm glad to have him on here. Uh, in this conversation, charlie quotes a line that he learned that at a ranching for profit school, about working on our business, not just in our business. And so that's, that's what inspired the title for today's episode. This is a continuation of our discussion that we started with Shawn Tiffany a couple of weeks ago, and that I hope to continue in the coming weeks about marketing and the many issues that go into that in the beef industry. And I think that Charlie's and this title, Give us a pretty good perspective as we talk about these issues. Yeah, markets have a life of their own and they're largely out of our control as individual producers, but what we do have control of is looking at some historical trends and visiting with some folks like Charlie or local livestock market owner or manager or whoever we choose to do business with, and figure out ways that we can do better while trying to work on this issue of marketing throughout the beef industry so there'll be some interesting perspectives from an auctioneer, from a livestock marketer, and i hope you enjoy the conversation with charlie cummings. Welcome Charlie Cummings to practically ranching. Are you enjoying being in the air conditioning, talking on the phone instead of, whatever else you were doing on this hot windy day?
Charly:By far by far? Yes. Uh, the hay is dry and a rapid pace. And, when I told my brother, I said, uh, I'm gonna be gone for a couple hours this afternoon. He's like, what's new. So it's good.
Matt:well, this time you, you can throw me under the bus. It's always gotta be somebody. So I, I, I have broad shoulders. How's the hay production been in Woodson county, Kansas.
Charly:Yeah know, Yates Center, America, hay capital of the world... It's been really good. We, uh, we caught a couple of those rains, you know, late April and, and early may that was really good. And then of course you gotta have rain in June to make hay and. Couple of those rains in real early June... so most of this Upland, hay, you know, it was making a ton and a half to three quarter, pretty easy, where guys sprayed and maybe did a little fertilizer work as well. Uh, we're seeing some of that as high as two tons. So, and that would be very, very rare, but in really, really good a couple three eighties, we had that my brother spent a lot of time on.
Matt:Good. So for those who aren't here from the Flint Hills and, this area of Kansas, tell us about what kind of hay you're putting up over there you know, warm season, cool season and everything all under the sun, but specifically the native grass Prairie hay, and, and, how you manage that in the off season and all that good. Yeah, it's native grass, Prairie hay, you know, there'll be, be some, some big blue in it, blue stem in it as well, hand a little switch grass and, and place for two. But, what we do is, come in early in the spring, usually the end of February, 1st of March, we like to give that grass, a little bit of a head start, but we also like to, uh, be able to give the weeds a little head start too. And most time we'll spray that, one pass if we're able and got a lot of regrowth, the year prior, and it looks like we're gonna have a lot of dead grass. We'll go ahead and burn some of those S depending on what the outcome of the forecast looks like we do. My brother spends a lot of time looking at the future forecast and things of that sort. So if, if we got a good forecast. We'll burn some of, most of the time we don't. And then, uh, we bail it start bailing, right at the end of June, July 4th, and then, Get off of it and stay off of it and let it be grass. And you're selling that in how big of an area, Charlie,
Charly:you know, we've got two or three, different customers that are really, really good to us. some of it goes down into Texas in a couple different spots and then, uh, out in the panhandle USA feed yard, and the panhandle lies quite a bit of hay from us. and then, we go north to Sioux falls, to one guy there that buys a lot of hay.
Matt:Good, good. Well, I know that, uh, right now you feel like a world champion Prairie hay baler, and mower. Um, but most people that are listening to this will know you as a world champion auctioneer. what's it been 10, 11 years ago that you were livestock marketing Association's world.
Charly:I hate to say it's been that long, but yes, I'm an old has been it has been yeah, 2000 elevens when I was, uh, fortunate enough to, have the rain, for the LMA and, yeah, been a, been a couple years since, but, uh, yeah, that's kind of the day job, I guess, if
Matt:you will. Good, good. I know. Um, folks have heard you on superior. Where else are you selling today or is it all mostly on superior livestock?
Charly:You know I was selling five or six days a week at the, at sale barns and loved it and, and learned a ton and would go back in a minute, but with superior and our summer runs and, uh, then, you know, being superiors every week now on Thursday, that's about all I do. Uh, I help, I help Josh out or Ronnie or these local guys, you know, if they need some help, uh, run and help them of an afternoon. on, on big runs, if they need help or if an auction year happen to be down in the wintertime, you know, they call me, but, that's about all I do. And, and then the production side of it, pure bread sales has gotten to be, uh, really strong, uh, the last five, six years, and so I picked up several of them, so that, and, and that's what I really enjoy. Good.
Matt:You've just gotten finished up, I guess it's been a couple weeks with the week in the Rockies. how was the market and the enthusiasm and the perspective out there?
Charly:I, I would say it's as good or as the best I've seen it since my tenure there. Uh, we come in there to 15, you know, and it was pretty crazy when we started learning how to sell in$200 language And by the time, by the time we got done with that, we were selling$300 language on light four weights. I don't know if we're headed back to that big$200 level, but we're there now. And that kind of started at the corn belt classic with a lot of those Northern calves were coming directly off their mama and ship in October in November, you know, and a lot of them five and a quarter clear up to 600, 625 pound steers, just bring$200, pretty easy, you know, with, with a tight five weight, you know, wearing a 2 25 that flipped right over into, in the weeken Rockies. The thing that probably stood out in the weakened Rockies is a yearly trade was eight or nine higher and, uh, quite a bit better than it was the two weeks prior when we were in, when we were in Sioux city. So the demand, I seen guys buying cattle on the click to bid and, and guys calling in on the phones even, and that, that I hadn't seen buying cattle for, for several years. and, and that don't mean is getting them. I don't know whether it was getting'em somewhere else. I don't have the answer to that, but activity wise would be very strong demand would be very strong.
Matt:Would some of those click to bid types, be your smaller, more independent farmer feeder types, or what do you attribute that extra demand specifically in that area?
Charly:You know, I, I think, when you start talking about the click to bid, you're talking about ease of ease of youth and, yes, some of those guys would've been, would've been smaller guys, just kind of throughout the Midwest, that's looking to probably get some inventory bought back after they've sold, some of these grass, cattle pretty good, you know, coming off the oage and coming off the front Hills. So they're just getting some inventory back in place for October and November and, and know where their numbers are at and, and they can do that right from their phone. I mean, it just that the way that system works, if you got good service. Right. So I'd accredit it to that as well as I, I think there's some guys coming in to play on this field that knows that we, we need more individualized farmer feeders, in, in the commercial cattle feeding world.
Matt:I've seen a, at least talk of a transition, whatever segment we're talking about in the beef industry, but, uh, there is this talk about moving away from big multinational, whatever the, the descriptor may be and into a smaller, more local swath. you know, I, I think we can argue that back and forth from an efficiency and from an effectiveness standpoint, what the positives and negatives are of that move. But regardless, uh, it doesn't matter if you're talking to a consumer in the grocery store, or if you're talking to somebody, selling CAS, it seems like there is this desire to do business a little closer to home. And I don't know if that's COVID driven. I don't know if that's market and economics driven. but there is right or wrong, there is kind of this hatred against big and, and, um, good or bad that I think it's there. uh, and, And I think, like you said, the demand for quality, the demand for maybe a little bit of a story and a little more than just hide color and weight, and whether they've had all their shots boys or not. Um, I think that that probably plays a little closer to some of these smaller type of, of feed yards that can, maybe tell that story a little bit, a little bit easier.
Charly:Yeah, I would agree. And, and I, I think several of these smaller, and I don't wanna call'em small, but 15,000 and under yards are looking for better marketing avenues. And, you know, with some of these plants popping up around and things of that sort, I think they're getting that. And I think the. Guy, that's got some extra funds and can feed some cattle and enjoy feeding cattle or enjoyed watching grandpa and dad feed cattle is either feeding cattle or putting cattle on feed somewhere and, and is getting them marketed, uh, in the spot towards profitable.
Matt:Yeah. You mentioned some of the smaller plants that are either in process or at least in discussions. I've depending on who you read and who you talk to, I've heard all different predictions of how many of these actually come online in the next five to seven years. But, what's the talk you're hearing now. I mean, you know, we've, you've heard as many of them as, as I have or, or more, but there's a lot of capacity and most of'em except for the one South Dakota, most of them would be a little bit smaller than, than what the big four own plants are right now. How many of these actually come online and I guess even further, how many are able to get the labor that they need to make it through those first three years. And what is looking like one of the tightest cow numbers and fed cattle supplies in, in a long time here in, in three or four years,
Charly:you know, that is just, that's just a great question. and very well rounded and, and broad, and I we've, it is been discussed. We've sat around the tables, in Cheyenne at weeken Rockies, uh, you know, with Justin tougher and several others and discuss, you know, we can get the cattle. I mean, the cattle's there. Uh, I think the supply is there, uh, for what these, for lack of better terms, localized processing, plant, American owned, processing plants, whatever you wanna call'em. I think for the most part, the supplies there, but being able to get the labor force put into place is, is gonna be, I mean, it's gonna be a pretty good hurdle. Uh, I think it's a hurdle that maybe we haven't went into as deep as we should. Uh, when we're talking about cracking the front doors on these things, but even just to get the rails in some of these plants is gonna cause the sixth and nine month delay in getting them open. And then if we got people standing at the door to get in, which I'm afraid we won't have, is it gonna be computerized? I mean, is everything gonna happen... you know, with a robotics. And so it's gonna be, it's gonna be a process that's gonna be, interesting. But I also feel like it's gonna be one of the best things that we've seen transpire, you know, at, at our age, in the beef industry.
Matt:Well, it's exciting to see, and I think anytime we have new money, new entrance, new creative energy into our business, it's a good thing. Um, obviously, economics in the market are gonna have to, um, allow it to happen supply and demand fundamentals. And, and, um, I would probably argue from my perspective that in our lifetime, and you're pretty close in age time to what I am. I was born in 73 and I think you're a little younger probably, or at least you've aged a lot more graceful.
Charly:We won than I have. Won't we won't go there. We won't go there.
Matt:I know our kids play ball against each other, so we gotta be close. Uh, but yeah, the, the most exciting to me was what happened in the late nineties to early two thousands. And I've talked about it on this podcast before, and that is the advent of value based marketing and making the. Making the incentives or putting the incentives out there that are passed, hopefully from the consumer all the way back to the cow calf and, and eventually seed stock producer for producing genetics, producing cattle, producing everything that the consumer will pay more for. And that was the first time that I saw that happen. And I think as much as we want to complain about packer profits and the amount of, of dollars that this beef is sold for retail, it's the first time in my life that we've actually been able to push a premium product through and get a ton of money for it at the retail counter. And so I think that's a win the downside of it, or the unintended consequence in my opinion, is that on the back of an antiquated negotiated sale of, of fed cattle. it has shown that we probably need to have a better way of, of setting that base price if we're gonna continue on any kind of grid and formula value based type of marketplace. so that's a long answer or a, uh, little bit of convoluted answer to the question of, is it good or bad to have these new packing plants coming on? I think it's, I think it's good competition always makes us all better. But there'll be, there'll be a transition period in here and, and it, for the sake of these new entrants into the business, I think it's gonna be, be a pretty tough time to be coming in online. Perfect world. You'd be opening these plants about a year and a half ago. And if you could have gotten through all the labor woes of COVID, there's nobody that's gonna disagree that this hadn't been a pretty good time to be owner or having a packing plant expanded. It's just that it takes so long, you can't, you can't time it. So anyways, it'll be, it'll be interesting to see how many of those actually come to fruition because of some of the issues we just talked about and the ones that do, how many are able to get the labor on board and to stay on board in, in a pretty tough market.
Charly:Yeah. And, you know, I look at I'm an auction guy, right. And I, I mean everything I do from, in my real estate business to how we sell our farm equipment, whether we're done with it or buying new, I mean, we do 90% of that at auction because I mean, I'm a believer in the competition and believe in auction competition. And so, yeah, we need to bring that into the fed cattle world, but, you know, I got four bidders really big, strong, it becomes a whole nother managerie and I think with these new ones coming in, like I say, if they can get set up and get things done, you know, it, it brings a competition that's, that's gonna be, I mean, it'll be phenomenal when it comes to the, fed cattle side of it.
Matt:So along that line on the auction side of things, whether we can or can't do it with four buyers, let let's say we've got eight or 10 or whatever we might have... from an animal welfare standpoint, from an efficiency of, of working within the confines of today's management, large feed yards, most of the time positioned close to where, or at least relatively close to where the processing plants are, but a long ways from a sizeable stock yards or, or sale barn or anything else, we're probably not going back to the days of running them through the ring one at a time, or even walking down the catwalk in Kansas city or Chicago or any place else and, and having a commission man sell'em. Um, is there a way to work in, and I know superior and we can touch on this with their fed cattle exchange has, has sure tried to do this, but is there a way to make that work to wear an auction based format is the way we set this price instead of a take it or leave it bid passed the next week? Yes or no.
Charly:I'd say, like I say, I don't think we're gonna go back in time and stand on the catwalks. I wish we would. I'd like to see what it was like. Yeah. Uh, but it, and then you, you know, as you mentioned, you look at the other side of that from an animal welfare standpoint. I mean, we're doing as good as job as we've probably ever done in the industry with the way we're taking care of'em now and the way things are being handled from the time they are ready to go, uh, to the plant. There, there's probably a method, to be able to make it happen. But in my opinion, there's probably more risk in the auction and selling'em when they're ready versus what we're doing, what we're doing, what most are doing with formula. And they're using that formula because number one, they can get sold out in front quite a ways. And number two is packer to the retailer, knows what they have coming and they can price it six to nine months out. And. It just keeps ging. And then I think that's where we lose a little bit of the supply and demand, in, in that market. And it trickles in that, unfortunately, like you say, it trickles all the way down to the cow calf guy to the, uh, to the guy that's, in the seaside business. I mean, and, and it trickles faster and moves faster probably than never has, day to day and a little bit of that to do with the CME too, probably, but
Matt:no doubt. and, and there's a lot of volatility there and that's what most of these formulas and contracts have been created to try to, to, negate is, is some of that up and down, volatility that we've seen. And you mentioned the packer, knowing what they have coming so they can supply a retailer. You know, we always in the beef cattle industry, shouldn't say always, but most of the time we hear, well, there's only four packing plants and that's the choke point in this beef complex because we don't have enough competition for what we consider our end product, most of us is that final stage while that steer's still kicking. And if we really analyze the whole beef picture, today probably the bigger choke point is one step further and that is from the packer to the retailer. When they've got Walmart,
Charly:Kroger
Matt:and a bunch of other conglomerates that are buying for the rest of the grocery stores. Um, you. Those guys, like you said, they're not, they're not contracting a month or two out. They're contracting six to 12 months out with their beef prices and, that's the way they do business. And so I think probably the packer is probably just moderating that back and trying to make sure they cover their risk as they go along. But it does maybe, maybe that's a bigger driver... We always, I think most of the time I hear this thrown on the backs of captive supply of fed cattle, when actually it may be the function of captive supply of box beef, as much as what it is of those cattle coming outta the feed yard.
Charly:Yeah. And, you know, you just think of the four, four bigs and, and what they do and what they accomplish and i, my mom was really good about us kids and it still is don't think she won't remind you today about, you might wanna put the shoe on the other foot and it is always, it is always pretty good. In most instances in this instance, it's pretty hard to do. I mean, it's, it would, I don't wanna, I don't wanna look at it from that Packer's perspective all the time, but at the same time, if, if I seen on Facebook that you, you had a few, four H cabs done the four H for sale, whatever it was four, five in the fat pen left over needed to sell, and I bought'em myself and sold on somebody and Kansas city and made a big margin... is that my fault? You know, and I look at that from the packer is he a, is he really a better trader than we are? I mean, he is getting his meat sold out front and he is, I mean, I just hate to say all that he's doing actually, cuz it's like really, but I don't know. Because we've either already got the cattle traded or we can't get'em sold to'em because they can't offer enough. And when they gotta go, they gotta go. Right. And so, I don't know, like I say, it's a huge problem to be able to come into it and say, well, we're just gonna hold onto'em this time and we're not gonna take that bid. And then, so if everybody does that, they've probably got enough of their own to be able to do what they need to do for the next week. I don't know. I, I honestly don't know the answer. I need to spend more time. I should spend more time researching it. Well,
Matt:That that's, that's why we're having conversations like this. I've had one with, uh, Shawn Tiffany from the feeding segment, I'm gonna have several more coming up. And I think those conversations, we can research it all we want, I do think that there is value in doing that because quite often the main research that we do is as cattlemen is meet up with somebody before or after the weekly sale or over coffee in the morning, or as we're reading Facebook or whatever else, and just get POed at somebody it's either the corporate feed yard's fault or it's the Packer's fault or it's this or that volunteer leader's fault or organization's fault. And, and like you said, putting that shoe on the other foot, sometimes you realize, okay, there's a reason that this is all happening. And part of it is global economics and, and some of the transitions that the world is going through and from a buying standpoint, how they're doing business, some of it is conglomeration and, and consolidation of the retail food service sector, and therefore the packing sector and feeding sector and everything else. A lot of it is just growing pains of a changing market. And, um, we're in a different, we. I spent the first third of my life here. And my dad talked to people about how we had to change from a commodity mindset in the beef business to a value driven mindset and make the good beef and therefore the good cattle and the good genetics and the good management and everything else... The good marketing... make that of value so that it wasn't this one size fits all. If they weigh five and a quarter they're worth X, and if they weigh seven 50, they're worth X minus this, and doesn't matter what potentially they have value in the meat case. So we've done that. We at least to a point, some would say, they're probably even need to be bigger discrepancies from the top end to the bottom end, but, but that's happening. I think it's, it's even happening more today when you throw in some of these, what I'd call management program incentives, uh, gap. the story beef, if you will, as we do that, and as that transition is happening from commodity to truly a value driven marketplace, we're gonna have some growing pains and I think that's has as much to do with it as anything. another part of it totally unrelated to this, because I sometimes question whether this is helping us or hurting us in terms of, of quality and the story that we can tell the consumer, but I had a guy tell me one time that it took us about 15 years to go from the beginning of value based marketing and you know, grid type pricing, formula type pricing of, of carcasses instead of in the beef or live cattle outta the feed yard. So we went from 95 ish till about 2010. and we got just shy of half the cattle sold outside the cash marketplace. And somewhere in that range is when some of these beta agonists came on online. And I may be off by a couple years, but that moved another 30 or 40% into the formula, grid, captive, whatever you wanna call it arena in a couple years or less. I think it was almost 18 months when the feed yards that decided to feed whichever beta agonists, they were gonna feed. They had to have a place for those cattle and there wasn't any saying I'm gonna hold out another week or two weeks. They had to know those cattle were gonna be harvested within a few days of when they needed to be. and that moved so many cattle to the quote unquote non cash or captive marketplace. Uh, we all, we all blame it on, on the CRI and the value based marketing, but technology moved a lot of'em there and they moved them there in short order. So, uh, of course there's fewer that I think are feeding that supplement today, uh, that beta agonist, but still the ones that are those cattle have gotta
Charly:be scheduled. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and it's gotta, yeah, it's gotta happen, right now, but I, to go back probably that last question, when we, we got, and, and I think it happened there in Arizona, you know, with the north of Southeast and the west, I'm not gonna call all of'em by their individualized acronyms, but they all come together. I mean, that's a really, really good meeting. There's a lot of good things come out of it, but nothing's been stepped in the right direction to get this negotiated trade happening. But you know, like you say, you flip through when you're researching, you look and look and look, and then all of a sudden, for some reason, you're a little bit perturbed or ticked off in one direction or another, no matter what it is, there's no unity. Right. And I like when you, when you called me and asked me to be, I was like, yes. And I went back and I've listened to all your, I mean, these things is, this is what's gotta happen. And you know, I guess I look at it, my granddad's gone. Uh, my brother and I were talking about this in the hayfield the other day, when we were sitting on the trailer with our arms cross watching our boys load. I had a boy. We're the, yeah, exactly. We're the next generation. yeah. We have gray hair in our beard for a reason. And I look at that and go, what, what have I really done? You know, to try to help this? Yeah, sure, we, we can talk about what we added in the late nineties with value and what we're doing and this, all that value that we put back in this, is making these cattle bigger and stronger and faster if you will, and is making everything better. And, and I think that's a little bit why some of these, uh, individualized farmer feeders are wanting to come back into the game. They want what their cattle's doing, because they've done such a good job, procuring their bulls because they've learned about it. And, you know, everything has completely tied together, but we need unity amongst the rancher and. And even we need, we need unity in the complete beef business. Uh, and that's hard to get because you, it's hard to get, it's easy to get it your an eye level at this local localized level level, if you will. It's it's you go to the next step? It's not too difficult, but I think if you try to get ahold of one of the major fours who you talk to, which you're actually to go, you know, there's, there's a lot of things that, that add into that, but the, the local rancher has done just a tremendous job when you start talking about gap programs and, and you start talking about what they've done with feeding products and, and the way these cattle have, it's changed the market and added value, but it's almost changed it such a rapid pace that, we can't keep up, you know, it's it's happened so awesome.
Matt:The, the unification of cattleman. I think we can go back however many decades, probably however many centuries and, let history be our guide and know that we're never going to be as unified as what some probably feel like we should, because I don't know anybody that gets into this business or returns as the next generation of the beef business and says I'm doing it because I like to be a team player. I mean, they didn't make any westerns back in the day, showing us all holding hands and singing kumbaya. They showed us out by ourselves, on a horse in the middle of nowhere and not only okay with that, but proud of that fact. And so we're an independent bunch. and that's okay. I think that's, you commented about this podcast that is about 75 to 95% of the reason I started the darn thing. And every week that I have to put one of these things together and go, eh, this is getting a little more into the day job than I'd planned... that's still the reason that I'm doing it. Because these conversations, while we're not gonna fix it in an hour, and we're not gonna fix it in four or five marketing focused conversations that I'm having, like I am today, but hopefully it'll get people at least thinking and talking by themselves and then communicating, not just lecturing, not just signing on to this organization's entire policy book, but saying, you know what I need to ostracizing this guy or that guy or this business or that association, just because of the way I think they feel on one issue, that being marketing. Whether we unify or not, we have to at least get back to having the conversation. And I think social media has driven it. I think that it was started way before that in our industry organizations... if if you disagree with me on one issue, then we're just not able to communicate on any of them. And man, that is frustrating to me. And again, that's, that's why we're having these conversations and hopefully they'll continue, not just on here, but at the sale barn cafes and the association meetings after church on Sunday or wherever that sometimes may borderline on sin having to talk about some of these things, but, uh, uh, right. They need, they need to, they need to continue. And, you know, I, I would even say, you know, we talked about the local ranchers needing to unify. I, I have chuckled for years when I see the premiums that are available and you see this, I think every single time, the premiums that are available on load lots of cattle, and obviously on superior, you don't sell'em very well if at all, if you don't have at least a load, lot of cattle, the premiums that are there for cattle that are of similar age, of similar type breed or biological type of similar management vaccination program, everything else, the premium that are on a 50,000 pound load compared to a group of 15 head are huge. And yet here we are, 40 years after superior was probably founded. And we still don't see very many folks that are saying, okay, I've got a hundred cows, you've got a hundred cows, he's got a hundred cows. Let's synchronize our calving seasons, pretty close, we neighbor already. Let's back.'em all together. Let's buy similar types of bulls and let's market these things together and get an extra nickel or 10 cents or 20 cents or whatever the case may be. It's been tried and it happens every once in a while, but we are an independent group and we'd rather give that money away quite often than working together.
Charly:Yeah. And when I talk about unity, The mathematic definition of that word probably is the number one Yeah. And, and that, and so you think about that first, but when it comes to that, the communication is a key factor. I can remember going with my dad as a young kid to the coffee shop. Uh, I haven't ever taken my, my kids was 17. I've never taken him to the coffee shop. He wouldn't know what he wouldn't know what it meant instead in, I mean, he's a keyboard lawyer now, right? I mean, you say what he wants and do what he wants on Facebook. And if you like it fine, if you don't like it, I can remember leaving the coffee shop. There is a guy there and I was just like, man, he's kind of loud today, dad. And he's like, yeah, but he's got some really good. Sometimes right. And I think of that and go, you know, man, that's the communication that our, the generation above us had at times, uh, and not at times as well. Like I said, it goes back to the original, the original days of watching the first Western. I mean, we're just, we're, we are just in individualized people and, and kind of wanna do their own thing. And that, that jumps right into having confidence in the neighbor instead of competition, you know? Yeah. Have have confidence in what he's doing and understand it, and we should be marketing these cattle i, and I've, I've got a whole different outlook on it than most people because of where I've come from and what I have as I set my office and look at it and...it's a wall of fame. And the there's several fill barn owners. Pictures that are on there where I worked over the years and, and I don't wanna take away from the local cell barn because they stimulate the economy on that day. Uh, they do tons of things for the local community. I mean the local cell barns are needed. We need'em. I mean, we need a way to do something with singles and we need something to do with, I mean, cows, the list goes on the local cell needs to be there, but to really provide value, there's, there's probably four or five of our reps that have done it. and, and it's been a goal of mine for a long time and I haven't done it. I, I do it with a couple different guys. I don't say I don't do it, but we pool those cattle together and we do exactly what you're talking about. We pull'em together, they're all in the same vaccination program. They help each other do it. they're buying the same. They're buying the, basically the same kind of genetics. And from what Mike cattle brought. From when I sold them, uh, last year and I used to sell mine on the Sheridan sale. Uh, it comes up the end of all of this, my home raised kids, but from selling those home raised kids on, on there and having 25 or 30 cuts, uh, off of my deal, 15 or 18 cuts off of their deal, there was$27, a hundred difference. Now, granted, I, we sorted the top end and took them on the load lots. And so there was some smaller later born CALS, nothing bad, just some later born CALS, but$27 a hundred. I mean, we're looking at hundred and 13 to$125 ahead difference on a hundred head cattle,$10,000. Yep. I realize that's probably only two tractor tires now, but
Matt:it's still
Charly:two tractor tires. yeah. That I, you know, with the cost of our input cost and our expenses and everything, it adds up and, and that needs to be done. These cattle need to be pulled together, uh, and putting the pool and everybody, well, how do you weigh'em and it it's simple. I mean, it got portable ground scales. I mean, it comes together so fast, a computer system that's spare designed to be able to pull these cattle together. You put, well, I put your weights in and you're paid for that weight. You don't have to worry about your neighbor's weight or your neighbor's slide. And then we put his in and then it throws it all together and sends it to the buyer. And like you say, the price difference, we all know that the, I mean, the guy that's got 15 head that lives south of town and just goes to town one time a year to sell his CAS, knows that his aren't gonna bring what the pot load in front of them bought. You know, I mean, it's just. That's just how it is. I mean, that's just the nature of the game.
Matt:Yeah. That's what I was gonna say. I don't know that it even just has to be a video versus the local auction market. I think most of these local auction markets would love the opportunity to help put those types of guys together, guys, and gals and, and help market those on the same day, same type cattle, same age. And they know they, they can get more out of'em if they don't have to put together a load two to three head at a time. Again, it's, it's communication. It's kind of given a little bit of your independence up and, and that's, that's tough for any of us to do it's human nature. That's right. No doubt about it. As we look at what's, something like that, kind of a management change, marketing change, paradigm shift, what's that worth? it reminds me, and I may have shared this before. I've done a lot of thinking about this and I don't even know what to call it, but someday I'll come up with some fancy name for it up to this point. I just describe it as the difference in, perspective or accounting methods from one end of the beef community beef industry to the other. And so I look at let's take my segment of seed stock, production. I look at most of our seed stock producers as being highly driven by legacy and tradition. You know, we've had the same breed for a generation or five. We've probably operated on the same acres for several generations. Maybe have even selected the exact same traits for years and years and years, decades, and decades and decades, we're, we're not gonna turn on a dime because the price of corn shifted from here to there. We're probably gonna stay the course. Cal calf producers are fairly similar, maybe not so much, but they're gonna do things pretty well like dad and grandpa and grandma did. And, and, just because there's a little bit of a ebb and flow in the market, I'm gonna have these cows for 10, 12 years. I'm gonna have this land for generations. I don't need to have that sharp of a pencil. You get to the stocker segment... margin operator. They wanna know what their costs are going in. They want to know what their break even is on the other end, probably gonna use some risk management. their banker is gonna want for their operating loans they're gonna want a little more information. So they have to keep a little sharper pencil. You get to the feed yard segment. Those guys. Have got even more, rigidity to their cost scenario and, and what they're gonna pay for cattle or corn or grass or whatever the case may be all the way on up to the packer and then their customers, the retailer, and those guys are down to the 10th of a penny when they make a decision. And, and I think that's part of this distrust. It's not just a lack of transparency, or even maybe a lack of understanding what our customer, whether it be the feed yard or the packing plant or whatever else. It's not just a lack of, of, of trust in them. It's a totally different way of looking at our business and, uh, that makes it ever more difficult to communicate and to understand, and the more I've studied this marketing issue and the more I've tried to do exactly what you said and, and research this to try to come up with a solution or a piece of the solution. The more I've gone, holy smokes, we can't make this simple enough for most of us on our own to even understand it much less, figure it out. And that's where being a joiner, and not just coming in with guns loaded, but saying, Hey, we've gotta fix this. Now let's lay it out and figure out, how to trust each other enough that we can, that we can make it work. But yeah, the, the differences in our segments and the way we look at buying decisions, the way we look at management and marketing decisions are so different from one end to the other. Um, it's almost like we're not in the same industry some days.
Charly:yeah. So spot on everything from each sector, I went to a ranching for profit, uh, seminar school, and I I got a whole lot out of it, but the number one thing I got out of it more than anything is that, you know, in most scenarios, the husband or the wife, one does one part and the husband, the wife does another part. And what I have found out is that I spend way too much time working in the business instead of on the business. Yep. And it's been the best thing for me. Number one, to be in this real estate that I'm in selling real estate, because I have an office here in town, on one side of the desk is full of real estate stuff. And the other side of the desk is full of cattle stuff. And when I've, and I still haven't learned, I got a long ways to go. But when I've learned how to build these Excel spreadsheets and learn how to do these things and put these input costs in and not have to. Not have to look at my bill when I get it, uh, from the co elevator, say, how am I gonna pay it? Because it's, it's in there, man. It working, just working on the business instead of just grinding your hands every day with pair of leathered gloves, you know, and trying to make better horses, I mean, it's, uh, it it's a whole different difference in the accounting method. I, I did a seminar for the Simmental association and, they wanted to know how to, what they could do better to market the cattle. The number one thing ever did to put your glasses on. And I'm only, I'm only 43. I was born in 79, so I don't have glasses yet. I do. But what you right. So it's coming, you're telling it's coming. You got, you got six years. You got six years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, what I'm saying is the grandma goes in, the grandma goes to get her glasses, upgraded. And she, while she's walking in there, she almost runs into the door. And then when she walks out, she's high stepping and can see everything. And that's what it comes to, when we think about marketing, marketing, our cattle, if we don't get a little bit of a plan ready, and know what the month of October is for a non-weaned calf, if you're not gonna wean them what that month is, or if you know what this hot and cold weather is and so on, so forth. And if you are gonna wean'em, when are you gonna. What weight class of cattle do you have for the next guy to want? I mean, get the glasses on, but instead what my granddad did and, and kind of what my dad did is, uh, it rained. We're not gonna be cutting beans or we're not gonna be doing this and this let's see if they'll come in, and of course been kicking the cows a little bit and they all walk in the pen, let's go and you them off and take'em to town. And there you're, and, you know, talk about not horrible, but if you could get a management strategy in place of the day, you're gonna sell him, get that sale barn guy or video guy, or if you're selling private treat to get that guy early, let him know what you're thinking. Let him know when you're coming, because if he can listen and get an aver, I mean, you're, we're talking about there's, there's like you said, it's a long confusing process, but if we could get all that in line and get it lined up the, the amount of difference in the bottom line is, would be phenomenal. I got a customer down there by south of Leon, uh, that called, just seen, seen it on RFD TV called wanted to know about it. And so I, I showed him, he'd been hauling his calves to Ogallala because from Leon. Yeah, because he knew the price was good. Yep. Well then he got trucking bill and what I mean, you know, anyway, we, we visit about it and I, and I he's pointed, he's done an amazing job with his bull battery. He is done amazing job with the way he went. He wasn't winning the way he's winning now and he understand, you know, the shrink and he's like, ah, and I'm talking about a guy that's got a multimillion dollar business in Wichita. That's phenomenal, but has come to the Flint Hills because he wants to run some cows and... great... and now that he's learning that side of it, he's now he's gap for HCC. Now he is the whole nine yards and we got guys fighting over these seven, eight steers. You know, that he'll sell in December because he knows it's brought value, but he's also spent a ton of time behind the desk understanding it and, and getting it, getting on the cutting edge where he can, he can sell'em as high as he can. The first year superior was able to sell his cattle, and we delivered him. He's like, this is gonna, this is gonna make me like almost$140 ahead more. Just because he had figured the trucking, the shrink and the sort, and all that adds up, kind of got off on a marketing binge there on you. But anyway, no, that's, that's
Matt:part of it. I mean, that's
Charly:working, uh, working, working on the business and instead of in it, uh, is, something that we can all take away from, you know, long hours just wear a guy down and you think about it the whole time you're in the tractor, your horseback cross there, you're thinking about different things, but when it happens, it needs to be scheduled planned.
Matt:Yeah. And you say, I wish I would've and I never made time.
Charly:Yeah. I, no, I, I know a guy that called the guy and said, Hey, I need four, uh, low ate bulls. You got'em. Yeah. Remember what you said? I think I have one left. Yep. Yep. Yeah. I'm that guy. I'm that guy. I knew I was breeding 200 those heifers first calf heifers, and I knew I needed a lower weight bulls and I'd. 27 bull sales I didn't get one.
Matt:Oh, shucks. I use it. I use it on almost every other podcast do, as I say, not as I do.
Charly:There you go. There
Matt:you go. Yep. No it, but it it's, it's part of human nature and it's not, it's not just us folks that are already working in the business and not on the business. I can't remember if it was Lyle or Henry, but one of my boys when they were ripe old age of about eight or younger, probably six years old, I sitting at the computer trying to get some stuff done and, and, um, I think it was Henry. He walks in and said, dad, are we gonna do any real work today? so they know it from the get go. If you're not in a pickup or a horseback or on the tractor, you're not really actually working. We've all been guilty of that. So before we finish up here, I've got a, uh, I got an open-ended question for you. First of all, when did you start selling cattle as no auctioneer?
Charly:Oh man, you're gonna go back in my diary. I was, uh, I was a sophomore in high school when I started auctioner, uh, with my uncle Mike, and then I worked for him for about two or three years and I was just, I played basketball in college, 97, 98, 99. So probably 2000, 2001. Uh, I went to K state, uh, to played golf and decided that basketball was more fun and played some mirror, mural basketball, dislocated my shoulders come home, went to work for gene Walters on Saturdays and gene, got me into Eureka and Ronnie started teaching me there how to, how to sell, um, how to look at a cow. Uh, of course I'd been auctioner for eight or nine years by then, but anyway, I'd have been 21 in oh 2 0 3 and that's when I started at Eureka.
Matt:So in 20 years, since then, what has been the biggest change in either the marketing portion of the beef industry or just the beef industry in general, from your perspective? What's changed?
Charly:Probably what's changed me is the quality of cattle. I mean, uh, it's, it is pretty amazing right here in our area to go to these sales, and not see the off crosses that we used to see before. and now the cattle's bigger. I mean, whether they're taking'em off, in October, right off the cow, you know, they used to weigh from four and a quarter to five and a quarter. Now they weigh five 50 to six 50, sometimes bigger in some instances, you know, depending on what direction, but the biggest thing probably is, the value that's been put on vaccinations. I mean, when I started, we didn't even ask when I was checking ke in, out back for Ronnie or when we never even asked if they had their shots. And so sometimes yes, sometimes no. Now you say all shots and then the buyer says what shots and hopefully they don't say just black leg. Right, right. Um, and that's that to me is. Even we got people that's coming now, I know that sell barns and they they've already got their buyers card figured out with what they give'em at Brandon, what they give them a wean in pretty wean inch shots, weaning shots, you know? And then once again, whether they implant them, whether they didn't just, the value that's been added in a vaccination program to me is, is, has been a huge change as well.
Matt:So in 20 years we have improved the quality and the quantity from a weight standpoint. And we've improved the quality of management... vaccine... preparation for the feed yard phase the next 20 years. Yeah. And I'm a little, I'm a little worried that the little guys not, we don't have as many little guys as we did have. Okay. I'm a little, I mean, I'm a little fearful that at, you know, it used to be, and nothing taken away from any sell barn that's done anything different or anywhere else. It used to go to sell barn and there would be nine to 15 coffee shop drinkers every week there, that's where they went on Thursday, Friday, whatever day to sell was to have their hamburger visit, talk and communicate. If we go back to that and then they also had cattle at home. And I think a lot of those guys they're not there, or they don't come to the sale. Or the little producer of 25 to 50 head of cows is not as many as it used to be, cause I think a lot of those Rangers probably got passed over the next generation. They're putting 90 day cattle on them in our country versus, you know, keeping a cowherd. So the next 20 years. What do you see as the three biggest changes that we're gonna see?
Charly:I think, our kids are probably gonna have the opportunity to make more money somewhere else than being on the ranch. And I hope they don't nab it up. I hope they understand the value of being on the ranch. And I hope they understand the value of being in this business and the importance of not making big money versus core values of what really happens at life's end. And I also think that these, you know, these big, big ranches, I mean, they are gonna be the generation that's removed from it, which we're seeing a little bit of that now in the real estate. That these ranches are being removed from the original owner. And so the kids are owning it and they're already off in some instances and they're either gonna sell it or somebody rents it and hopefully the local guy gets to rent it, not a big corporate stocker grower, cow calf producer. I think I'm seeing and hearing a lot more of this in the west, I mean, Idaho, Utah, out, out across there, Oregon, California. I mean, it's not, it's, you're small with me at 5,000 cows. Yeah. And they've just got big, big, big, and had to get bigger because either the BLM wasn't gonna lease to you cuz he wasn't big enough or you had to have more cows to lease that country or somebody come in. That was big.
Matt:The continued consolidation is one that worries me. And I see it, uh, in land purchases, quite frankly, in this immediate area, there are often land purchases by somebody from a long ways away who may or may not put the first bovine on there of any kind, stocker, cow, whatever. and so that one does make it tough. You know, back to your comment about the next generation of, ranchers and farmers coming back, I'm, I'm a market guy and an economics guy, and I would say that for the most part ranch type kids that believe in their family, believe in the business, understand what it takes. Hours wise, dedication wise, risk wise, both physical and monetary. They get it and they can make that decision as long as it's not an absolute poverty level income. I think you made that decision. I know I made that decision and so many others that had an opportunity from a cash standpoint to make a whole lot more money annually, but chose to come back to this business, some will call it a lifestyle and it is, but it still has to be a business. And I think it's up to us, all the issues that we've just talked about for the last 45 minutes or an hour, making sure we market and merchandise these cattle for what they truly are in terms of value, making sure that we spend that hour or two a day or day or two a week or whatever the case may be on the business, not just in the business, making sure that we make this more than just a way of life and lifestyle, because if we don't, I don't know that it's the kid's fault for quote unquote being lazy or not wanting to, you know, just, just wanting to go get rich off of some day job. If we don't set them up and set this industry up to be a viable, sustainable business going forth, and, and that's not easy because we have to probably act more like a packer or a feed yard or a retailer in the way we sharpen our pencil and do the work and the planning and the managing risk. And it's not as glorious and it's not as fun and it's not as independent and, and tough guy image, but it's probably what we have to do going forth.
Charly:Yeah. And its it that almost becomes a full time job in itself and thinking of, of making it sustainable, making it where it works, like you say, so it's not at a poverty level and, and sometimes you gotta think outta the box, we. We're looking at a piece of property, my brother and I are now. And I think we're crazy, but I mean, when you got my 14 year old daughter, I, I hope she'll be around. I mean, we always do. and you got my 17 year old son and then he's got five and they're coming right on. It's like, do we have enough? Is there enough? What are we gonna, yes. And we just look at each other and go, yeah, we're, there's gonna be enough and that's why I'm saying diversify, we're looking at a property now, you know, it may be an Airbnb and we're gonna turn an old stock trailer into how to gather eggs. I mean, it family farm funds for the city folks to come to and We don't know if it'll work, we haven't even got to where are we gonna do it or maybe not do it, but, I can remember hugging trees and everybody says you can what? And I said, yep. My dad, my dad had a sister in Wichita that owned three top nursery, and we planted trees. It's still called the tree patch behind mom and dad's house. And all fall, soon as we got done with harvest, we started digging trees, and they, my dad diversified enough to make it where he could have both us boys back on the farm, back on the ranch. And, you know, if we gotta go back to planting trees and digging trees, I guess we'll do that too.
Matt:well, having that open mind is, is what it takes. And I think that's a good place to stop because now finally, on your 20 year anniversary of being the champ, we can now call him Charlie Cummings, tree hugger.
Charly:There you go. yeah, the whole different style. So we had to, we put'em in the ball and then you have to wrap the top of'em with baling twine and so you can haul'em so you don't break the limbs, and so you had to hug limbs tree all the way to the top.
Matt:We were, well, you, you don't, you can explain that all you want, but from here on out, I wanna hear you introduced as the tree hugger on superior.
Charly:Uh, okay.
Matt:oh, yes. Yeah. Well, Charlie, I really appreciate it. I appreciate you being with us today and, and all of your insight, and I think it's really good have these conversations and we'll continue'em... both, uh, on here and, and whenever we see you down the road
Charly:sounds very good. Thanks so much for having me. And, uh, please call again. I'd love to come back. We'll
Matt:do it. We'll do it. Thanks again, Charlie. Thanks for joining us for practically ranching, brought to you by Dalebanks Angus. If you enjoyed the podcast, heck even if you didn't... help us improve by leaving a comment with your review wherever you heard us. And if you want to listen again, click subscribe and catch us next week. God bless, and we look forward to visiting again soon.