Glen and his family are great neighbors, customers and friends. They own and operate a diverse ranching operation consisting of custom grazing, a cowherd and even a small direct beef business.
We cover plenty of practical ranching issues this week, ranging from tasks associated with custom grazing of yearlings in the Flint Hills to rangeland fire to cattle handling and even family communication and succession planning.
Notes:
www.ksfire.org
Glen and his family are great neighbors, customers and friends. They own and operate a diverse ranching operation consisting of custom grazing, a cowherd and even a small direct beef business.
We cover plenty of practical ranching issues this week, ranging from tasks associated with custom grazing of yearlings in the Flint Hills to rangeland fire to cattle handling and even family communication and succession planning.
Notes:
www.ksfire.org
Well, thank you once again for joining us for episode 12 of practically ranching. Today, our guest is Glenn Collinge. Glenn just lives about 10 or 12 miles Northeast of us. And as you can tell, a there are a few Hills that separate us and the signal wasn't the best. We weren't able to sit down and face to face. And so we recorded this remotely, but Glenn and I got to cover a lot of country, several practical ranching issues, everything from custom grazing to, Range, land fire. We talk a little cattle handling and we even talk some family and ranches, state planning and things like that. So, Appreciate you tuning in once again this week. And, we look forward to visiting with glenn Collinge well Glen thanks for joining us today How are things in the
Glen:Pretty good It's uh, it's hot and dry. We're about to the middle of August but uh we're doing pretty good
Matt:Glen you are coming to us as you have said before from utopia
Glen:yeah, that would be the nearest town between Hamilton and Eureka Kansas
Matt:And there really is a utopia Kansas population zero a church Right
Glen:Correct Utopia church still stands there
Matt:The perfect setting in the world Of course
Glen:Sure. Sure
Matt:you're in the midst of or maybe on the short row of shipping season are you not
Glen:Correct.
Matt:little bit about for those who aren't here local to the Flint Hills of Kansas Tell us about summer grazing of yearling cattle and to finish how that happens and then you'll eventually you are now and shipping those yearlings
Glen:Sure. So, my family and I live as I mentioned, near Hamilton, Kansas, which is in the Flint Hills. we run a custom grazing operation. We lease land and make a relationship to bring cattle in and custom graze for people that's not unique to, to ranching by any means, but somewhat unique to this part of the world. We'll bring them in, April 15th, July 15th Is the 90 day season. That's the majority of our cattle, Uh, are here for 90 days. Some are here for a three quarter season, which is 120 days, but we'll, uh, we'll receive those cattle in mid April. We will take care of'em throughout the summer and then begin to ship them around the first part of July. And just depending on our management goals will ship from anywhere from, like I said, the first part of July to about now, which, uh, the 9th of August today. And we'll, we'll finish up about the 25th of August. So about two months.
Matt:Glen what would those cattle typically gain and what do they gaining this year?
Glen:Uh, they would typically gain on a, on a great year. They'd gain two and a half to three pounds a day. And this year they're gaining about 2.2 to that. That's a good round average uh, so we've had some cattle do 2.8. this would be a moderate to, to an okay year. It's not, not been great, but it's been. It's not, it's not been great. It's been pretty dry and, and we've lost some of the, some of the punch here as the, as the summer's worn on. We haven't had much rain, but I, I hesitate to say that because compared to many of our neighbors, we're in excellent shape. so so I'm certainly not complaining, but it's been a moderate year. How about that?
Matt:Well and average wise it's been average but you kind of had the worst of both of you both worlds Did you not early on it was cold and wet and the grass didn't do a thing from the 15th of April until really almost late may 1st of June Right?
Glen:I, I would say that's accurate.
Matt:We went straight to hot dry winds and uh very little rain So yeah it on the average it's probably gonna look like a typical spring and summer but we had both extremes
Glen:And it, and it shows, uh, the cattle didn't do as well this year We've we've had. Four or five really good years in a row And we've gotten a little bit spoiled. And so this year was not as good. And that's uh that's just the way it goes.
Matt:Those cattle are coming from where Glen as far as regions of the country or the state?
Glen:Uh, a majority of the cattle that we handle will come from Northeast kansas. A pretty good percentage of those. Most of'em will come from within Kansas That is not typical of a, of a Flint Hills custom grazing operation They'll get a lot of of uh Southern cattle or or Southeastern even. But, uh, a majority of ours come from come from the Northeastern part of Kansas. We started with a few folks here, uh probably in the mid nineties and from that little nucleus, it's actually in Jackson county Kansas We've we've got several customers that live in Jackson county and are great people that are really, really enjoyable to work with. And, so we're, we're pretty fortunate to have somebody that's really close and, you know, the cattle don't have to ride. Four or five hours to come down here. They can be down here and, you know, load'em in the morning and be here by midmorning. And it it's been a really beneficial relationship to, to both of us I hope.
Matt:And so most of those then are coming from a cow calf producer Are they owned by the cow calf producer or have they been put together local barns and and things like that
Glen:Almost all of them will be put together. A majority of them come outta the Southeast and the east, Virginia, kentucky, Arkansas. we don't, we don't graze, very many home raised calves. They'll all be put together cattle, like I said, out of the Southeast and
Matt:So they got those in the fall ran them in a stalker type background and scenario and then are sending them to you for spring and summer grazing
Glen:Correct. Most of those cattle will, will sell off grass. will send a handful of the feed yard, but most of those cattle will, will sell in the country.
Matt:When they hit your place mid April they're weighing what?
Glen:Uh, 600 would be a good, good round average. We'd prefer about 5 75 to, to six and a half six, and a half's really too big 5 75 would be a perfect number.
Matt:then they leave weighing to nine
Glen:Hopefully. Yes.
Matt:And so you're in the middle of shipping season as we said what uh how does that work How you days time number of crew trucks you name it Take us take us through it
Glen:Well it's uh, it's pretty typical to, uh, to any ranching set up in the, in the world. Really. We'll, we'll, we'll start pretty early. We'll try to be at the backside of the pasture, shortly after daylight, which would be about, we usually start about six this time of year and try to be. Out of the trailer and and, to the backside by six o'clock, uh, try to have everything to the pin in, in good time. And we don't wanna be pinning any cattle after 10 o'clock in the morning. We want, we don't, everybody pinned. It's okay to if we have to load some or, or sort some, but we would prefer to have everything in the pin by 10 o'clock. We have an 80 foot scale there in Hamilton that my mother Pam, weighs all the trucks in. She, we, do that commercially. She, she weighs, trucks for anybody who like to do. And, she'll away the trucks and send'em out to us. And as I mentioned, a large portion of those cattles sold. So we'll, we work with, we worked with several buyers in this, in this area for a long time, and we're well acquainted with one another and, and how we do things. And so we're able to really kind of fall into the pattern and uh get everything sorted They take off the cuts, they don't want and, get'em on the truck and we should be pretty well wrapped up by 10 30, 11 o'clock every.
Matt:What time will those trucks start weighing Will they weigh empty I assume early in the morning
Glen:A lot of'em, will will run to the feed yard during the day and then come back at night and they'll, they'll haul cattle outta the Flint Hills for for two or three weeks or however long they can last really cuz those those guys really work hard and and uh, and run pretty hard that That time of year. So mom will start weighing trucks about five 30, or really, if it's a big day, she might start at five or whenever. And, uh, try to get them run through, try to get the trucks outta there by 15 or six 30. She should have everybody weighed and they'll kind of stage there in Hamilton and start dispersing to their various locations. And I think this morning, this morning, I think she told me she weighed, uh, 36. Maybe 46, but anyway, 30 or 40 trucks in Hamilton, Kansas is a significant amount of traffic, but it doesn't happen all year long. So everybody kind of works with us and, and is pretty easy to get along with. And, it's been a good relationship. They dinner a little cafe there and, Hamilton breakfast rather, and, uh, and head out to get loaded. and as I said, a lot of those guys will run back, uh, during the afternoon And, and get back, about dark, if they're lucky and if they're not about three in the morning and set up camp there at the scales and get ready to do it again the next day.
Matt:Just as an aside we've had a podcast or two that talks about entrepreneurship and providing a service in rural America that maybe is not there or at least could be done better. Up until about what 15 years ago those scales would've been the former football field for Hamilton high school which Now not playing football games on Friday nights but instead going up to Madison but you all purchased and and your mom and dad kinda started that business a little over a decade ago Right?
Glen:I I think it was over seven was the first, when we put him in was oh seven. I, I may be wrong, but I think oh seven.
Matt:I remember your dad wanting to go look at scales at a KLA meeting in Topeka one time and and what year that was I can't remember for sure but yeah it would've been somewhere around 15 years ago so that's a pretty good service not just for you all but for neighboring ranches that that make it a whole lot easier than having to come down to a set of scales 30 or 45 miles further out and yeah as far Having that many trucks in Hamilton Kansas for those of you not from the area it's quite a site as you drive through there early in the morning and see a line of trucks along highway 99 and down the side streets and everything else of a town of what 150 people?
Glen:Yeah. A hundred hundred people And as I mentioned before they they're kind of parked everywhere and the people Hamilton around them for those two months and are, are awfully gracious and and forgiving when we, uh, have that much in town enjoy seeing them come too So neat to see see
Matt:Yep Yep It is Well good deal So you'll be what pretty well finished up with shipping here over the next week or so or do you have some full season cattle as well?
Glen:We have a pretty small amount of full season cattle. We'll get them about the first week of October, but as far as the three quarter season and and half season cattle day should all be gone here uh by about the 23rd of August or so They'll they'll all be gone.
Matt:Glen as you're as you're shipping these yearlings out of the Flint Hills are you using horses Are you using four wheelers pickups in front of'em how are how are you doing that
Glen:So we'll use a mix of all three Matt we we will use a feed truck on everything that we gather Uh we'll try to feed him four or five times in the evenings before we start to gather And then we'll use a feed truck the morning of and we'll use we'll use a mixture of horses and four wheelers at different times we don't use them together We'll we might use all all horses or all wheelers and it just depends on the project something that we've gotta really cover a lot of ground or or time is a factor or if we're just looking for some we'll use wheelers but if usually if we're if we're handling the cattle we'll use horses and and the whole crew We'll be a horseback you know this year we as everybody knows horses are not cheap right now so some of the horse surge getting a little bit older And a couple of neighbors had said you know what I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna move to wheelers And we did that a couple of days And We weren't able to handle'em as well And uh when we're shipping now if we're sorting or rotating we we'll use four wheelers quite a bit rotating just to get some movement in the cattle and then leave them alone They know where the gate is That's that's not that big of a deal but if we're you know trying to keep them trying to keep'em quiet and trying to hit the gate on the first shot and trying to you know keep as much fill in him as possible We'll use horses to together with on ship and day and to load trucks and sort and so on Uh we've had the we've had the same cowboy crew for for a long long time And uh uh there's a great deal of experience and knowledge there And with a great deal of experience and knowledge comes uh uh our crew is not getting any younger I'm trying to say that gently and
Matt:you you
Glen:no not make That's no That's no why I'm trying to not make anybody mad cuz they uh those are fighting words with those guys Tell'em they're old
Matt:Well we
Glen:but uh
Matt:and I'm not even on I'm not even on your crew but I uh I'm old And I I I appreciate when you said when you wanna handle'em quiet you use horses and and it's amazing to me as I talk with that that strictly handle cattle with a UTV or an ATV or or whatever the case may be Well we don't use horses cuz it stirs cattle up too much And we don't like to hoorah And I I think in my old age we're using oh it's we're still 90% of the time We're we're moving cattle horseback but by moving'em horseback they move better with the four wheelers and by
Glen:Certainly
Matt:Kinda like kinda like using prescribed fire I mean all the above are a tool and if you used correctly you can get the job done and hopefully do it in the lowest stress Manner possible because like you said it's easier on people especially as our crew is is aging darner easier on the cattle And when you're easier on the cattle that's the misnomer I think that the public has that that ranchers and Cowboys are are hard on animals... my goodness we depend on these animals for livelihood and a living, And when we do things quiet and things with their best interest in mind they make us more money because they don't get stirred up They don't shrink they don't lose weight they hit the bunk eating their quality grades better in the end the whole picture And so whatever it is then like that's why I asked um how you do it And I I beneficial to hear that you whatever way needs to work that day and and and will be the most effective
Glen:Sure And and and you know tongue in cheek I said if you're if you're not cheating you're not trying we'll do whatever's best for the cattle that day we want it we want it What I don't I don't really care what it takes We wanna do whatever's best for the cattle Really without regard to tradition or how the neighbors do it or anything like that we wanna do What what what empirical evidence suggests is the best thing for the cattle and we have several tools in our toolbox for that And you know as we mentioned uh uh a lot of times rotating you know we'll we'll rotate several larger groups of cattle and simp you forwarder simply because you can put movement in'em much quicker with the Forer than and then get And they know where they're going and and and they'll head for the gate and we'll still ship those cattle horse back and we'll use whatever tool is is available and is the best one for the job
Matt:And I the first cattle handling seminar before I even knew what natural cattle handling or at the time I think we called it low stress cattle handling before I even knew what that was Your dad had a guy Oh my goodness What's the guy's name from Texas that you had up
Glen:Uh it's not Tom kn singer it's uh oh Nope I I can see his face I am watching in my mind him telling all the neighbors to turn your horse away from the and make the triangles and everybody just staring at him Like he had
Matt:I'll never forget the look on Mike Wiggin's face as he as he said that anyway so that fella did a two day seminar there at your place And one day was horseback and one day was on foot I learned so much from him and it kind of got me hooked And then I went to a no singer session that the Kansas association had And and since then now with with Eric and me here it's just it's almost a game to see what we can do that we didn't think we could do in terms of cattle handling and it all goes together and and regardless of what tool you're using as long as you Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult Um whether whether you're working with cattle or kids I think that there's there's a lot of benefit to using that pressure and release method and using those natural regardless of whether you're on a four Wheeler or a horse
Glen:Certainly and and it was interesting to me as I learned more about it the the similarities between people who are really good Cowboys and cattle handlers Way back before there was low stress cattle handling they were doing things that were parallel with the things that were that bud Williams and Tom kn singer and and those folks were doing and just didn't just didn't have a name for it So that that was one thing that you know I think a lot of people when they wa went to that school thought you know okay I might do I might do this anyway You know that that's when this works well this is what we do anyway So that helped them to kind of buy into it and lean into it a little bit and say okay this isn't just you know uh I don't know what to call it Uh voodoo Yeah there you go There you go That's a good good term for it They said this this has some value and And this is something worth buying into for sure
Matt:well and the good ones that we're doing it right already Recognize I mean I I threw poor wig under the bus He was the first one to figure out that Hey I can back my horse collect him and step through a turn without having to turn his butt to the cattle and still accomplish what you want me to accomplish by releasing the pressure and what I want me to accomplish by keeping my horse faced up to cattle and not turn his butt to him And and that's the
Glen:And And that question had not been asked of that of that clinician
Matt:yeah
Glen:and and everybody everybody everybody there the day obviously uh Mike asked him about it but everybody there that day said I don't I I'd rather my hor And and so he that kind of threw him for a loop a little bit but I do remember having a conversation with Mike and he said a lot of these things will happen Anyway we just didn't have a name for'em or a name for the process So I thought that was that was interesting
Matt:So what will be on your calendar for the rest of the fall winter And early
Glen:So most of our activities are focused on that 90 days. That's, that's kind of our bread, butter, and almost everything that we do in the, in the fall and winter is to augment the the custom grazing we'll, uh, cut trees, build fence work on pins spray EISA. just, anything we can do to make those pastures better. A again, as I mentioned, a majority of these are lease land and we, we try really hard to take good care of'em and, and be a good tenant to the people that own these places. And, and I, I would say Greenwood county is not unique in that respect. We don't have any public lands, but there's a, pretty good portion of absentee owners. and it's fairly common In Greenwood county to have an absentee owner and to just lease it out for 90 day or, you know, lease it out for grazing. And that that's something that we take awfully seriously. We, we really wanted to do a good job. We wanna take care of the pasture. And, uh, some of those relationships have been, you know, dad, mom and dad started in, uh, 78 and some of those relationships have lasted to this. And we, we really work hard on continuing in those relationships. So that being said, all of our efforts are really focused on making those 90 days as productive as possible. We want, you know, wanna work on trees, wanna make sure we've got, got good fence around it And and we will start buying a few cattle in November and October and, we'll loan them ourselves and, and run them through and, and sell them in the country during the summer. At to kinda augment the custom grazing. And, uh, so we, we will have to, we will background some calves during those months, but not a, not a huge, huge number, but, enough to keep us all outta the pool hall. Anyway.
Matt:Yeah,that's always been a problem with the Collinge family I know
Glen:true. That's true. Wild bunch.
Matt:No doubt. Full disclosure I had Mrs College as my fourth grade school teacher back in oh 1984, so I've gotten to see the colleges from a lot of different Perspectives And and it's always you're great ones to have in the community not just since you're on here but uh especially your mom and dad of course So everybody always wants to know stocking rates and they vary widely I know from area of the country and region depending on rainfall and grass types and of course weight of the cattle So when you're bringing those Five to six weight calves in uh stocking rates for those through this 90 day grazing season
Glen:Uh two and a half to three would be a good round average uh
Matt:per animal
Glen:yeah a acres per animal That's correct And we will adjust that to each pasture not not it won't deviate much, but you know, if it's, if it's something we're really trying to build a big fuel load on, we may we may uh you know put put several cattle on there and then take'em off the last week of June or the first week of July, if we really wanna build up that fuel load and try to get a good fire through there We, we try to adjust the stock rate to fit the country. And I would say two and a half to three acres per head is a good round figure.
Matt:So we're gonna change gears here Since you said fuel load there will be a lot of listeners on this podcast that that will make absolutely no sense to, So let's switch from yearling grazing to that off season that we were talking about and let's talk about controlled and prescribed fire management and what you mean by fuel load
Glen:So prescribed fire Something is very prevalent here in the Flint Hills and uh something we use a great deal. the reason we use prescribed fire so much is try to reduce, the encroachment of Woody species as much as possible. that's something that really threatens, tall grass Prairie is, Cedar trees and, and the brush just like anywhere else. So that that's a tool that we've used for a long time and We hope to continue to use We hope to, we, we try to use it responsibly and that's something we'd like to be able to use going forward for sure, but we'll start about the last week of March and we'll go until about the 1st of May and we'll try to burn everything that we have a, a management goal in mind for. We try not to just burn just to, just because, we we really try to have some effect when we use prescribed fire and also that will remove all that dormant dead grass that'll remove that and allow our big blue stem and all our native grasses to come on. And and it, it makes about 30 pounds ahead of difference. If we can get that pasture burned versus unburned, it, it really makes a big difference in our custom grazing operation. That being said, we don't wanna burn it just to get the gains. we wanna apply fire where it is most
Matt:Most of that burning is done in the spring You have done some prescribed fire in this time of year late summer fall... uh are you going to do that this year or what's your plan there?
Glen:Uh we haven't discussed it a whole lot yet... it is quite dry here. So fall burning would be to, try to control Ceres in And if you don't know What that is then you're lucky because we have we have a great deal Well our we, we have a great deal of Sosa here in the Flint Hills and that has proven effective here And it's just come about in about the past five years but it has proven to be effective so far in controlling... i, I'm not gonna say controlling... in maybe Hurting the PSA population. I, I, I would hesitate to say controlling cuz nothing controls it, but, uh, it, it has become a really significant problem and prescribed fire in the, during the growing season, which is to say about the 1st of September that has proven to be pretty helpful. How about that? Its proven to be helpful as opposed to chemical application or mechanical application. The thermal treatment has proven to more helpful a and cheaper by far.
Matt:sure And the biggest thing we do there right is is smoke those plants as they are flowering and getting ready to make seed And so we don't necessarily do anything to the plant itself but we sure stop at seed production so that there aren't quite as many laying around for the next 20 years to
Glen:Correct. And by doing it during the growing season, we hope to. You know, we hope to get some regrowth and we don't wanna laying their bear all winter. We'd like a little regrowth to uh, to come up and then, and then go dormant over the winter and have something protecting the ground. So that has, as I said, that that has come about in the last five years or so. And has has proven to be helpful. I I'm optimistic. I'm guardedly optimistic about it. I think it's, uh, I think it's a good tool to use
Matt:And I I think as we go forth that's one of the things we have to recognize is you know we're not just all running around here with the can of gasoline and a bunch of matches, We're we're doing this for a reason And and some years there are reasons not to burn or some years there may be reasons some pastures there may be reasons to burn in the fall And as long as we use that use the right tools and Not just haphazard approach to it we can sure Benefit, And it's about as natural of a way to benefit that native Tallgrass Prairie as anything we've got in the toolbox And I think that's something that your dad as I remember back 20 years ago and working with this smoke management plan And some of those I know Mike worked about as diligently as anybody around that I know of and making sure that we still have that prescribed fire as part of that toolbox and um cuz when it comes down to it; Yeah we do send some smoke into the atmosphere; Yeah There are some negative consequences of of burning whenever we do it The fact of the matter is every time we can do it that reduces the need to burn diesel fuel in a in a skid steer or a tree saw or or chemical application or anything else So it is probably about as holistic of a of
Glen:Certainly. And, and one thing we really try to be cognizant of is where we're sending that, smoke and and there's there there's days when you, look around and you think well that seems silly because you can't see 10 feet in Greenwood county. We we use the uh smoke management tool on uh can't remember the website but, we'll we we use
Matt:fire do Uh or I can't
Glen:Dot org dad would be very upset but I didn't put that out there.
Matt:well you you've got it You've got it in the phone all through March and April You just open the window and it's it's there every morning
Glen:So it, it, it provides us. Okay. You know, we pinpoint where we're at in the county and, what county we're in obviously, and it'll say, okay, you've got a green, yellow, or red contribution to the, to the smoke today. And in the previous five years, we have really blocked down on trying not to burn on on red smoke days There are days when I feel like, well, that doesn't really matter cuz the whole neighborhood's on fire. And, and what difference does it make? But we've, we're really trying to, trying to be aware of that because I, I understand the impact it has on people. I wouldn't like it very much either if I was asthmatic And and you know, it was having trouble breathing, but we're trying to we're trying to manage this without the use of chemicals without the use of, fossil fuels. and and if we don't, we most certainly will lose this biome. We, we won't have it anymore. It'll it will be grown over in, in Woody invasive species. And so I, I feel like that's an appropriate trade off to use. So we try to be really aware of where our smoke's going and, and try to get a lot done on the green days and, and, uh, try to do something else on the red days that doesn't always work that way, but we're, I think more and more as time goes on, more people are, realizing that this is in some danger of, being legislated out of common practice. And we don't want that. So we're really working hard to be, be good neighbors and be responsible with it. And try to make this something that, you know, we can continue to use
Matt:Yeah and I I think it The same with a lot of different management tools that we use in the beef industry and really agriculture in general. There's a lot of unknowns just use the term not in a negative way but ignorance of what it is we do every day out here to try and produce food For the hungry world. And a lot of times it takes two things Well it takes a lot but two main things it takes some education and some storytelling on our behalf To say why it is we are doing these things And then the other thing, it takes some uh give and take on our end as well And and we have to consider things like you talked about the smoke management plan and that website by the way for anybody that's listening is Ks fire.org most folks in the Flint Hills know and use that a lot throughout the spring And and whenever they're doing a burning but know some some things like that that just require a little bit of of give and take and a little bit of forethought that still allow us to use these tools and and don't em all taken away because we've sent another smoke plume over city Metro for three days the weather patterns and things like that.
Glen:Certainly certainly.
Matt:In addition to the prescribed fire you also get your opportunity to work with some fire that may not be as prescribed or as controlled. You are the new county fire chief here in Greenwood county Uh tell us a little bit about your history with with firefighting in rangeland fire there too
Glen:Okay. So in 2010, I believe i, I was burning and tried to sneak it in before the wind came up one morning and I, and I, and it got away from me and, the local fire department showed up and put it out and, and, you know, have, have known those guys forever. And Neighbors good friends of mine, but I I'd just come home from k state and just gotten married. And, uh, Mike Wiggins, a good friend of mine said, Hey, why don't you join the fire department? I thought, well, sure. I'd, I'd like to be a part of that. And from that, uh, it evolved into quite a quite quite a chapter of my life I guess so I joined the the local fire department here, the Greenman county volunteer fire department, and just started learning more about it and, you know, Mike explained that he thought if, if we're making our living, uh, out here in the grassland, then we need to help protect it. And, and I agreed with that. And so a lot of the guys on that department are ranchers. And I mean, I'd say all of them and, are very familiar with the prescribed fire and when the pager goes off during the winter, and fall they'll they'll show up to help. And that was something I really wanted to be a part of and, thought was a worthwhile way to spend your time So I kind of doubled down on that in in 2013, I went to work for the Kansas forest service as a wild land fire and with them, I deployed, all over the west to, large wildfires with part what's called a hand crew And it, it was a type two, initial inter agency hand crew and that's kind of a mouthful, but we were based outta Denver and, comprised of folks from Denver fire, Kansas forest service, folks all over the Midwest, would come together and form this crew. And we would deploy to, anywhere that you couldn't use vehicles, you know, rough mountainous terrain obviously. And I've deployed with them as well as, Kansas forest services engine. And really enjoyed that. really got a lot out of that. Learned a bunch, met a lot of different kind of people. met a lot of people who had heard of the Flint Hills and thought we were nuts, uh,
Matt:which they may not have been too far from wrong
Glen:that that's accurate, accurate, but in, in the forest service, 160 acre burn, uh, you would, I mean, it's not uncommon to have 15 or 20 people have a month of preparation. You. Really really it's a, it's a big, it's a big project. And I said, well, we might burn, we might burn 10,000 acres in an afternoon with five folks. And, uh, they just thought that was, that was ludicrous and it may be. But, uh, anyway, I, uh, I, I really enjoyed that. That was something I, I enjoyed doing and, wanted to be a part of. So I've got five year old twins and a, and a daughter, that's almost three. And that'll, that'll really curtail your, galling around the country. Rachel was not real keen on me leaving for two weeks at a time with three little kids at home. and I wasn't either. I didn't enjoy being away from him. So I, I quit doing that in 2018. Not only because the 20 year old kids were getting younger and I used to, I 20 used to not be that far away, Matt, but, uh, scam her up the mountain and wait for us old guys to get up there. And I didn't appreciate that one bit, so anyway, in 2018 kind of retired more or less from doing that. and here just this last month I, became the the county chief here in Greenwood county for Greenwood county fire district one it's something that, a volunteer fire service is is Ubiquitous I've been places where they don't have one And I, I felt really, really fortunate to live here where we had such a good one and it was something I wanted to be a part of And uh I, I, I wanted to see this organization thrive and, and do well and, and be, and perpetuate. We don't exactly have volunteers beating down the door wanting to join the fire department anymore and that's, that's the case across the mid I mean really nationwide and, and certainly across the Midwest, the demographics are changing and the young people, unfortunately don't have as much time or the inclination to to volunteer for something like that. So I I am so thankful for the people that show up and and want to help do
Matt:as far as your new role um what all does that entail How many volunteers do you have in the county All total how many different firehouses across this county are you looking at on that scope
Glen:So Greenwood county is if I'm correct, I believe about 1500 square miles and it's about 6,000 people We're pretty sparsely populated. we've got 14, divisions scattered across across the county, we've got around 40 pieces of equipment and we have about a hundred to 125 volunteers that are a formal part of the organization. That being said, if there's a big grass fire, again, we are, we are very fortunate to live here Uh, this entire county is full of firefighters, basically, cuz if, if we have a bad day and have a big fire, then then, the ranchers will show up and bring their spray rig, which are in many cases just as, just as good as ours. And they're very, very knowledgeable in how to, how to apply them And how does it work as a team? And so that's something you don't see everywhere is, the whole neighborhood shows up if if we have a bad one.
Matt:Yeah I think that's one of the blessings that we have as you talked about talking with folks from across the nation that that think a a quarter section grass fire is a is a huge deal There's a culture of burning that has generations in length here I mean you go clear back to the Native Americans that were here that were using fire and knew how to do it And and granted we've got a lot better technologies today but it we're comfortable with big fires especially if we know where they got started and why And because of that training I think a lot of folks around here understand what it takes to protect what we need to protect and get one snuffed out or at least get where we need to get and light a back fire and let it burn into it And that's not something that other folks in other regions are are familiar with are comfortable with That doesn't mean that we don't lose things That doesn't mean that there isn't some risk and some danger but yeah throughout the Flint Hills Most of the times you've got you've got cattleman ranchers landowners that understand what needs to happen and and how it needs to happen and when they need to help And when they need to get the heck outta the way sometimes and let the professionals do it
Glen:Well, and one huge advantage that we have is that we understand how fireworks in this area, we, we know where it's gonna go. What's gonna stop it simply because we, we see it every single year. Uh, and that being said, we take a lot of the, we take the fuel load off every spring, uh, to. I mean to a large degree So so that helps a great deal with our wildfires in the winter Now we still have them but we're still able to use natural barriers usually to stop them, a lot of the time, whereas, you know such as Anderson Creek or the Starbucks fire, of course, prior to 2016, that was unheard of then we had the Anderson Creek fire, the Starbucks fire, the Reno county fires, where just so much, fuel's been built up over the years Due to a variety of reasons that that when it does happen, it's a, it's a dangerous, dangerous beast. And that's, so that again, that goes back to we try to be responsible with our fire so that we can keep using it cuz make no mistake if we discontinue our, our prescribed fire here, we'll be in the very same boat. We will We will, grow an enormous fuel load and uh it it will burn at some time or another and we would prefer that to, to burn when we mean to not to getting away and and and I think that's, that's really something those folks out there ha have come to grips with is they, they they've begun some prescribed burning and some grazing management, uh, to try to reduce that fuel load a little bit just because, I'm not gonna go into global warming or climate change or anything like that, but the the facts are in the last four or five years, we have had, significant wildfires in Kansas. And that's just gonna be the case going forward. I don't think we're, it's gonna get any better. I think it'll, I think that'll continue to happen.
Matt:You're right And and one other advantage that we have here in the Flint Hills um yeah we get big fuel loads and yeah we can have fires get big and hot but we do have more humidity We have more annual rainfall We do have a little bit more green I mean you know in the cases of the the Starbucks and Anderson Creek fires and like you said even the one Reno county last spring It was so dry there was pretty good fuel but the air humidity or lack thereof I mean basically it was burning across dirt and almost burning through the air Uh and most of the time in the spring we don't have to fight that part of it Uh quite miles west
Glen:certainly And, it's very common for us to have one overnight, uh, you know a tree it burns a tree have a tree on fire the next day. and it throws some members out and start the fire the next day That's very common as far as uh at wildfire burning through the night and into the next day. That's very rare for eastern Kansas. We, we don't see that that much and I, and knock on wood but uh, that's, that's one saving grace that we have is we don't, we don't see that as much. Whereas those guys, I mean, it burned all night and into the next day and all the next night. And it was a very, very difficult thing. To try and contain. And as, as everybody knows, and, and the folks out west Montana and, and the western part of the United States and California and Oregon, and they they know that all too well.
Matt:So a little bit ago, Glen, you talked about um recruiting the next generation of firefighters and finding folks younger than you to to join on as volunteer firemen That brings up something that You're fairly familiar with I'm fairly familiar with I'd say most people in farming and ranching listening to this podcast are fairly familiar with and that is the generational transfer within production ag within rural America. You work there with your folks your mom and dad actually and you can tell this story way better than I but would be the first generation at least here in Greenwood county... You tell us a little bit there and then let's talk about moving into the second and subsequent generations in ranching.
Glen:Sure So mom and dad started in Greenwood county in the late seventies you know tried did some heifer development handled some cows and kind of settled on the on the backgrounding and custom grazing as as what they wanted to do I got married in 2010 I've got two sisters one older one younger neither of which live on the on the ranch They live they live pretty nearby and Aubrey and Leslie both are and their families are are connected with what we do that'll tie into later so Rachel and I got married in 2010 We had that we've got three kids Uh both of us came home from K state and I went to work for mom and dad in in oh nine or 10 So been there 12 13 years wherever that adds up to. And we're starting to have those conversations And we I I really enjoy working with my family we get along really well and that being said it's still a hard that's that's a hard thing That's a hard obstacle to overcome mom and dad are are having fun doing what they want do And I want them to continue that, I and you know we've talked about this many times but that's the last thing I wanna do is like okay you guys need to head off to Florida and I'm gonna take over I that's not what they want do, And they're still they're enjoying what they do and and having fun at it So I wanna I wanna augment that as best we can Rachel and I do and my sisters as well To see what the next next generation looks like and see what this looks like moving forward And that's not an easy task at by any means So as as I mentioned we get along really well And my my main focus on this is for that we're all still speaking afterwards Of course I think that'll I think that is very achievable but this is a this is a hard thing to do for a lot of
Matt:Yeah it is I think you nailed the first step And anytime that I have been on a panel been on a discussion heard a session on on this exact subject The first thing most people want to know is well how do we set up this estate so we can move it from one generation to the next? And most professionals that I've ever heard cover This have said time out don't hire the attorneys until you sit down and And communicate and figure out what do mom and dad really want or grandma and what does daughter and son-in-law or son and daughter-in-law what do they want and and make sure that you figure out what everybody's unquote perfect scenario is and then start drawing the roadmap. As um as my friend Don Schiefelbein I heard one time You better have everything written out and every eye dotted and T crossed before you give it to an attorney and let them screw it And quite often we wanna hire the lawyer and say let's draw this thing up so we can transfer the the ranch Um and he said if you don't have a game plan they will completely mess your plan or what what what you probably want in the first place up And so that communication piece that talking with mom and dad grandma and grandpa whoever I think is key as as we start down that
Glen:Oh absolutely and another thing I wanna mention is one thing me and Did well was a very smart intelligent capable people uh which is no surprise if you know my sisters and a rather large one if you know me
Matt:kudos to Rachel
Glen:You bet you bet So so we have the these these four families essentially that enjoy spending time together and want to work together So you've gotta figure out what that looks like And that is that is that's hard to Know to figure out what role you feel and what where everybody fits in is is difficult you know one thing my my sisters as I mentioned they've they've got their own careers and their husband's had their own careers and uh one lives in Kansas city and the other one uh lives at Opie one thing they've done is buy cattle with us graze him over the summer And they're still able to come During the grazing season and and help us process a little bit help help Paul cattle grass and things of that nature And and and we we enjoy it We wanna keep doing that but like I said it's uh I think I've said about four times It is it's hard to do and we've had the we've had the conversation but as far as okay know here's the real clear cut picture of what we want and where we want to go We haven't got to that point yet And as I said mom and dad are very mu very very much interested in in Remaining active And they have absolutely no plans to to retire or or anything like that They're they're having fun And I want'em to keep doing that I think they've they've worked really hard all these years to get to get to that point where they can they can do the fun stuff And for for those of you that know Mike Uh some of his fund doesn't really correlate with other people that are that that age fund Uh dad likes to cut Cedar trees and fix fence and improve upon things He's not interested in golfing or or anything like that He likes he likes to work. And so I want him to be able to do the things that he wants to do and and maybe turn some of the more unpleasant tasks over to to me and Rachel and our family and and uh mom as well. She uh she spent 41 years with uh the Eureka school district And uh and after retiring jumped right in and started weighing trucks and helping us burn and haul cattle and process And as I mentioned I want them to be able to do what they wanna do and and do the things that they enjoy And if they don't wanna go out and and feed when it's 10 below that's what I want but again here here's here's a family I feel like who Pretty well on communicating and and has a pretty good relationship And still that that conversation's a hard one to
Matt:We talked about those conversations and and what I would call kind of casual communication maybe an informal setup of non-resident siblings that are still invested in ownership of the cattle part-time help when they can... how formal have you gotten do you have an annual stakeholders or stockholders meeting? Do you have things written up And and if I'm pry too much tell me but everybody does it differently So I'm just curious how formal you've gotten?
Glen:We've had several formal meetings where we try to get all the adults together and find the kids as a babysitter you know in a different location And uh I don't know why because my children are perfectly well behaved all the time and quiet you know play educational games Uh but uh you know had had a formal meeting and and still so that's about as far as we've gotten we're to the point we need to proceed but you look back and you're like well we just had that meeting Will you look back And oh crap That was that was you know a year ago And yeah life just happens like that That's just the way it is So you've really got to be intentional all all three families have young kids and and lots of lots going on So you have got to be intentional about meeting and Reassessing where everybody's at and what you wanna do going forward And and as I said that there's not a real clear cut picture of what it's supposed to look like I you know it's a hard hard chore that's for
Matt:You know when the the Perrier family had their Dale bank's Angus stockholders meeting amongst the three brothers and my grandpa Christmas Eve
Glen:Oh my
Matt:And I barely remember it as a Um but I heard horror stories about having this stressful annual meeting because this would've been through some times that were pretty tumultuous in terms of agriculture and the Angus business and everything else And so we always joke about who's gonna ruin Christmas this year with bringing the pet that tears up the rug or whatever else in in the house But quite often that annual stockholders meeting ruined Christmas, And uh so I knew that that was not the time to do it We went for a while there when it was mainly just mom and dad and and no other family members that were large owners of of the ranch And then Amy and I come back and I start going through Estate kumbaya sessions of how you're supposed to do it And I said we need to bring back the annual meeting And uh that was the first thing that mom said we're not doing it on Christmas Eve or Um but guess what
Glen:Carolyn's a wise woman
Matt:Now now we have it on the first day of January or thereabouts because and part of the reason is that's a slower time and in our management cycle That's a decent time you know we've just finished up with the bull sale a month before and we've got a decent handle on on financial picture and things like that But if you don't set the first Tuesday of January every year or whatever it is exactly Like you said... all of a sudden you'll say oh I think it's about time to have an annual meeting And you realize you know you didn't just have it a year ago That was two and a half years ago cuz
Glen:sure
Matt:that I just was curious and terms of formality and and where you've gotten there What about outside help Um I told the Sheel buying story Have you employed the help of of Anyone else or is it still a pretty inclusive family communication setup?
Glen:So we attended a workshop put on by case state And what it's funny you say that because we referenced some of the things from that workshop And Rachel reminded me the other day that that workshop was six years ago And and so here I think you know we're making some traction making some headway and it it happened six years ago and it's just and there are no there's There's no good reason for it It's just life gets in the way and that's just the way it goes. So that's been the only again we're kind of starting this process and and you guys don't know it but we we watch what you guys do cuz you're in a in a similar situation and so we're kind of observing what you do and then you know we'll just follow right along
Matt:Then we'll we'll we'll make sure and not make the same stupid mistakes The pars did.
Glen:But yeah that that's the only outside help that we've sought so far And and and it's one of those things that you forget about for two years and all of a sudden you're like oh shoot you know we've gotta do this you know tomorrow and this is the only thing we're gonna do for the next two weeks or something Of course it doesn't work like that But so no that's the long winded answer to your question is we've just kind of begun the formal process of that We've discussed it several times And as far as getting down to the nuts and bolts of it that's just now beginning and You know I I have I have several several friends around Greenwood county line county that are in the same boat And you know that's a conversation we have when we get together is you know ha have you kind of started doing that or what's your what's your process like and and nobody has emerged with the gold standard just yet So I and I think that's common All over you know in ranching I mean that's just the way it goes any any advice is uh
Matt:is appreciated
Glen:I'm hoping for
Matt:Yeah I mean it's it's different for every family It's member depending on what the setup is going back Couple podcast a couple weeks ago I had Charlie Cummings on and and uh Charlie had been to a ranching for profit the old mantra use quite often spend time working on the business not just in the business And this would be one of those working on the business kind of things that yeah to say for the next two hours or two days or two weeks we need get this task completed But If we started into a task like building fence like we do a task like estate planning, And we didn't finish that fence Uh I had an old friend that used to say the fence isn't done until you finish the gate you can spend all winter long building the best fence with the best brace post with the most perfectly stretched wires And if you forget to build the gate at the end cattle's still gonna get out
Glen:What what an what an excellent analogy Because sadly in ranching there are I I could tell you a dozen horror stories just from you know just from seeing them play out Not not only in Greenwood county but just in ranching in general you you just watch it's just a total train wreck and and people you know relationships ruin and people don't speak to each other anymore And it's it's that's a bummer That's something I wish We could do
Matt:That's that specifically to this task of multi-generational ranching whether whether we're even talking about transferring ownership of anything estate or otherwise if that family gets to a point where they won't speak anymore it doesn't matter what the business was, is, will be um To me That's not an option You just you can't let it get to that. And we've all seen it we'll probably always continue to see it Uh but man it's rough
Glen:Absolutely
Matt:it's just it's it's rough that it gets to that point sit down and say Hey fix the communication piece of it Let's let's figure out what you really want before
Glen:Because that's uncomfortable on the best of
Matt:Oh yeah
Glen:You know Hey Hey mom and dad I've been thinking about taking over the ranch Why don't you why don't you tell me how you're gonna do that And you know obviously so how to try that on try that on Mike and pay and see how they think of it But uh no we we joke about it all the time but again I think I've overstated that uh that that's a that's a hard that's a hard one like I said I I'm ranking for profit has really put out a lot of information here in the last few years about uh transitions and and succession planning And that always My interest cuz I wanna observe people who have done it success successfully and then uh try to try to take some some some lessons tools They've
Matt:Yeah cuz there are some out there there's a lot of folks that that are experts in this regard like you said Kansas state university has has put on some some great sessions throughout the state and throughout the years there's a guy that I heard farm bureau session shortly after Amy and I moved back So it's been 15 to 20 years ago and I can't remember his name, but he was from university of Nebraska and he does this I think that's about all he does maybe teaches used to teach class in it but the story that he took he had several of them But the story that stuck with me was he he would teach a senior seminar class and everybody maybe any production ag animal science agronomy whatever a case may be had to take this seminar And as part of his senior seminar course they had to go home over Christmas break or spring break whatever semester it was And before the final grades came out they had to sit down with their parents or grandparents If they were going to go back and work into a family operation they had to write down a job description complete with salary
Glen:Oh my
Matt:And so young senior in college goes home at age 22 and tells his dad that uh we need to do this And the dad says um you tell me who told you we need to do this And so he gave him the instructor's name and number and the guy called him up and just ripped this guy up one side and down the other you can't get into our business This is our business not yours And the instructors said that's fine but your son doesn't pass this class without doing this assignment And so I guess years down the road the father runs into the instructor as a farm show or he said Hey I I wanna thank you for making us sit down and do that exercise He said we did Do you wanna know something That's son of mine Expected to make 25 or$30,000 a year salary Now granted this was 15 years ago but it was still way under the money And this guy thought that was absolutely highway robbery And so he told this kid you better go work someplace else If you think you can make that much And I'm sure made 50 or 60 grand someplace else but those those conversations need to happen before you get into it and realize I can't make this don't want because it's better then
Glen:And and from from my angle if you're coming back you had better have some sort of mechanism for contributing And Mike might argue with how much I contributed to but you had better you had better have something in mind for oh well I'm just gonna go back And mom and dad are gonna put me up and gimme something to do I'm not I'm not saying that I was the most scholarly about that but we were so fortunate that I had been part of the labor force and to kind of ease into that part of it and and go from there to start out as a kid fresh outta school to go ahead and just start doing the$10 an hour stuff and and keep after it and go from there But From my angle You you had better contribute something to that operation that you're trying to go back to
Matt:Yeah And give and take And I I had a similar scenario here when we moved home I basically replaced an employee who had turned in his resignation and moved on to a different ranch And and so the timing of it Wasn't at all like what Amy and I were thinking but at the same time we knew that that was gonna free a spot up to make some money And to like you said contribute from a labor standpoint and then Also hopefully build some equity and take on some managerial roles and and mom and dad have have always been really good And I'm very fortunate in that regard um that that they little by little bit by bit would relinquish some of that decision making as as we went to me that's that's a an obvious Move And that's an obvious setup but it's not the same for everybody And I know you interned with RA brown ranch and and th rock Morton Years ago couple decades ago maybe And and I believe that Browns I know when Donald and Kelly came back that they had a requirement that they had to bring actual business or a business model to the table and and not just be hired labor but they also had to have a plan for growing that business when they got back to sustain uh an extra extra set of miles to feed And so everybody Has a different setup there um that transition So you went away to college for four years or so Did you come you came straight
Glen:Or so or
Matt:or so let's let let's let's add that or so you you had other reasons to to hang out there a little bit longer were there any other requirements I know in our family um it's an unwritten rule but but still a rule that we go elsewhere and get a paycheck from some other entity that we're not related to for at least a And I probably extended that and and made that into Eight or nine years before I moved home, And in some ways that was good In some ways it was detrimental because it it made that transition back to Greenwood county, back to rural America a little bit more of a of a challenge but uh still I I think there's benefit in getting a paycheck from somebody that's not a blood relative. Did you all have anything like that Uh I know you've worked for a lot of other people while you were in school
Glen:I think it's it's absolutely essential One one thing that mom and dad were were really big on was was going somewhere else and and helping other people and seeing a different way of doing it a different business model a different ranching model uh just seeing a different relationships that people had And so as you mentioned I interned with Ari brown in truck Morton I also interned with the Rex ranch in uh sand Hills Nebraska And I that was phenomenal not only in learning about ranching but learning how to how other people did it what those relationships looked like with other people just a walking in somebody else's shoes basically And that and that's uh That's something I've always that they I'm sure wasn't always the most convenient but that they allowed me to do And and I I think that contributed a great deal to to my education For sure
Matt:Yep those experiences are invaluable and and yeah the old the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results sometimes not always There's reasons that we have certain traditions and there's reasons that we do things a certain way on this ranch or that ranch or in this region or that region But sometimes it's because we've never been exposed to a different way. And when we bring up a different way Mom or grandma or dad or granddad tells us well you you can't do it that way We've always done it this way Uh quite often the greatest response And I catch myself already starting to do that with my kids And we've talked about that but uh yeah a little little different perspective Never heard anybody
Glen:Certainly not And it was and it was good for me personally just to get out and get away from home And uh I lived in the sand Hills Nebraska for for the spring of oh eight and Rachel studied abroad in Spain the same time And we got married shortly thereafter because once I got home I thought That was truly awful uh the the girl I I got to go to town on Sundays and the girl at Safeway thought I was really something because I would talk to her as long as she'd let me
Matt:Oh golly the uh
Glen:we
Matt:in the
Glen:my my foreman lived a distance away and the other guy had gotten knee surgery For about two months I fed cows every day by myself and saw zero other people And I am I'm a social person And that was as I said that was that was a learning experience That was I I that that was truly a learning
Matt:we need those so that we realize by the time we think that rough at home or we could be should be wish we would've done something different We can harken back to those days and go you know I had that opportunity and um maybe this isn't so bad after all Glen We appreciate all your time today as always we did cover a lot of ground here everything from fire to forage to family Um and we didn't use any other F words So uh I think it was had to be a good day So you know that's Al that's always a challenge with you and me Of course you bet You bet stay cool out there Thanks for joining us for practically ranching, brought to you by Dalebanks Angus. If you enjoyed the podcast, heck even if you didn't... help us improve by leaving a comment with your review wherever you heard us. And if you want to listen again, click subscribe and catch us next week. God bless, and we look forward to visiting again soon.