Luke Westerman is a Supervisory District Conservationist for the Natural Resources Conservation Service in Kansas. He provides consulting, technical assistance and leadership for farmers, ranchers and landowners wishing to best manage the natural resources on their land.
In our conversation, we touch on the formation of the Flint Hills, the woody invasion of the plains and the many functions of this unique ecosystem in Kansas.
We are fortunate to have folks like Luke who look at their government "job" as much more than just a paycheck. Luke is deeply invested in the Flint Hills region and all of its flora and fauna.
He and his wife, Mindy, are our friends and fellow leaders in our community. Mindy is our kids' 4H club leader and Luke now serves as our Eureka City Fire Chief (didn't even get time to talk about that on this episode), as well as various other volunteer positions.
So enjoy this discussion about the Flint Hills, how they have persisted through the centuries, and what lessons they can teach us as we go forth.
Home | NRCS (usda.gov)
Luke Westerman is a Supervisory District Conservationist for the Natural Resources Conservation Service in Kansas. He provides consulting, technical assistance and leadership for farmers, ranchers and landowners wishing to best manage the natural resources on their land.
In our conversation, we touch on the formation of the Flint Hills, the woody invasion of the plains and the many functions of this unique ecosystem in Kansas.
We are fortunate to have folks like Luke who look at their government "job" as much more than just a paycheck. Luke is deeply invested in the Flint Hills region and all of its flora and fauna.
He and his wife, Mindy, are our friends and fellow leaders in our community. Mindy is our kids' 4H club leader and Luke now serves as our Eureka City Fire Chief (didn't even get time to talk about that on this episode), as well as various other volunteer positions.
So enjoy this discussion about the Flint Hills, how they have persisted through the centuries, and what lessons they can teach us as we go forth.
Home | NRCS (usda.gov)
Thank you once again for joining us for episode 14 of practically ranching. Today we get to visit with Luke Westerman. Luke is our local NRCS conservationist in this area of Kansas. And, you know, if you haven't figured out already. I kind of get a kick out of ironies in life. And contradictions and antagonisms. And so I suppose that as odd as it may seem to some, it's probably fitting that I go from a conversation last week with Kurt Hogan, from the Silicon valley about technology and artificial intelligence and using data to make decisions and, and in some fashions, even act like we can overcome what the natural order of this world should be. Fast forward to today, and we're going to talk about the Flint Hills Uh, landmass that as Luke will tell us is the, the last vestige of the native tall grass Prairie in north America. And it's here because regardless of how hard man tried to screw it up, the limestone rock and the Flint rock layers that were so close to the surface of that a of those Flint Hills wouldn't allow it. And so, uh, we'll talk about how those Flint Hills came to be. We'll talk about how they remained and how we as ranching conservationists needed to protect them going forth and protect that biodiversity that they offer to us and to our operations and ranching and really to our lives. These are ironies, this conversation about using data and tech to do our jobs better and then the next conversation saying, you know what... As much as we've tried, nature's got this thing figured out pretty well, and we just need to work within those natural laws to do our jobs. Those ironies are dealt with every single day in farming and ranching. And so I think it's pretty fitting that we go from one extreme to the other and in a week's time. And we figure out that we don't necessarily need to overcome nature, but we do need to respect her and work with her and figure out ways that we can do a better job of carving out a living while still conserving the natural resources that, that God has blessed us with and that we want to be able to pass on to future generations. So, we'll cover everything from the history of the Flint Hills today to, burning, to cover crops, to all kinds of different things that we can use... Not necessarily interventions to change the Flint Hills, but to figure out how we retain and make sure that these grasslands remain so, appreciate Luke being here. And, we look forward as always to today's conversation. Welcome Luke Westerman to practically ranching. Once again, as always, we appreciate you being with us. We appreciate the listeners listening in. So Luke, you're the NRCS guy in this area, the grass guy, the range guy, the pest guy. You're a Jack of all trades when it comes to ranching and, and knowledge and, consulting with area ranchers. Tell us what your actual title is and where you base and, and just kind of the long and short of what you usually do on a daily basis.
Luke:Thanks for having me, Matt I appreciate the invite and glad to be here. But yeah, Luke Westerman work for the natural resources conservation service. Title is supervisory district conservationists. So I'm the supervisor over what we consider a management unit, a management unit would be several counties put together to where we have one supervisor and several field offices across those counties. I cover right now, five counties. So I've got Greenwood, Woodson, Wilson, elk, and Chautauqua. And so we have three offices within that management unit and have you know, several staff members that, that do the same work that I do. So we work with farmers and ranchers to do conservation work. NRCS federal agency, but we also work with state agencies and local agencies. One of our partners is our conservation districts. And so we have conservation districts within our offices as well, providing support to farmers and ranchers. And, and to us to, to do that type of conservation work NRCS is hopefully known as, as being technical specialists for conservation work. You know, say for example, a terrorist is, and waterways is, is something that NRCS is well known for implementing these terraces and waterways in farm fields and try to reduce soil erosion on these farm fields. But with me being in Greenwood county and being 85% grass grass and a lot of our counties within our management unit, fortunately I get to work with a lot of ranchers to do grazing plans recommended stocking rates and, and assist with other problems that they have out on the range land and pasture land. And so we work a lot with you know, Woody invasion problems sericea lespediza, which is a noxious weed to this part of Kansas. And so really enjoy working with those ranchers, doing that towards sort of thing.
Matt:So I've lived here all my life outside of the 10 year hiatus. Actually family has been here for five or six generations. yet here I am a native of the Flint Hills, and I've heard you on two or maybe three occasions, give the reason and the history of how the Flint Hills came to be and why they still are that native range, land grassland that you're talking about. time you give that, I learned something that I didn't know. And I'm embarrassed to say that, but those of us, maybe that are like me, that know exactly why and how these beautiful Hills are still here. And especially those who are outside of the Flint Hills region. But have heard of them, tell us how they came to be and why we've still got multi thousand year old plants surrounding us in, in the Flint
Luke:Yeah. So I grew up not too far from here. W Eastern Woodson county, I would just kinda on the Eastern fringe and not technically the Flint Hills, but another eco region called the Osage questas, which are made up of tall grass Prairie. Flint Hills are actually the largest remaining tract of tall grass Prairie in the world. And so tall grass Prairie is a very unique ecosystem. It's it's one that is only found in the United States historically was, was through Kansas up north, into Nebraska and South Dakota. And North Dakota just stretched a little bit over into Minnesota, down through Iowa Illinois, but then from Kansas, go south down into Texas. And so this tall grass Prairie is known for its tall grasses, you know, there's species out there that, that grow relatively tall. Native warm season grasses, primarily big blue stem and Indian grass and switchgrass. Those are the grasses that you find in tall grass Prairie versus some of the mid grasses and short grasses, like little blue stem and side oats Gramma that you'd find primarily out west in, in more arid country. The thing about Tallgrass Prairie is that those grasses demand quite a bit of moisture. And fortunately, here in the Flint Hills, we get 36, 37 inches of rain every year. And so we have abundant moisture to support those grasses. So, you know, if we think about tall grass Prairie and, and it's been around for tens of thousands of years, and there's a lot of root system underneath that tall grass Prairie. And so we, we think about that root system and how it created a soil that was very productive. And so that tall grass Prairie in Iowa and Illinois, that's why we're getting the production that we're seeing on the corn, because it essentially created a soil that is very high in organic matter and, and, and loaded with nutrients. And then we ask ourselves, why is the tall grass Prairie? Like 4% of it remaining? And so we have to go back in time and think about it. And the central part of the United States was, was covered in a sea... what they call a permium sea or a great inland sea. And the sea was teaming with life. And there was a lot of different organisms in it, but a lot of times those organisms were like clams and oysters and those types of things, things that had a very high calcium content in their exoskeleton. And as those sea creatures die, they would settle down into the bottom of that sea. And, and over time, those organisms would be transferred into limestone. And so limestone would be that sedimentary rock that was created by those organisms that. Filled that sea and over time, you'd see that body of water recede, and then you'd have more shallow seas in that area. And then you'd have maybe different organisms within it. And another organism that you'd commonly find within those, those oceans would be what are called diatoms and their structure is different than what a clam would be. And it's, it's made more of a silicate nature, a mineral that's high in silica. And when it settled down, it would actually create when it would compress and over time, it would create a sedimentary rock called chert, which also is known as flint. And so that's what caused the Flint Hills to get their name is because if we look at our rock within the Flint Hills area, it's got layers of Flint within it. Predominantly limestone, but there are small layers of Flint. And so when settlers came across and recognized and were naming these regions, they saw an abundant amount of Flint. So they called that the Flint Hills. And so that rock, a lot of it is exposed at the surface. And, and so in other areas of the tall grass Prairie, that rock isn't there. And so that's where you'd see those places where it was tilled up ultilized a very productive farm ground. But fortunately well... Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on if you're a farmer or rancher, then you know, you'd see where that rock would be exposed and you couldn't plow that area. And so the Flint Hills area is abundant with limestone rock Flint rock that can't be plowed. And so it's, what's really, it was left for ranching. Trust me, they've attempted to plow it, but just didn't have much luck and so left it pretty much primarily for ranching. And so that's why, you know, the Flint Hills are still around the tall grass Prairie still remains within this area is because it's just too Rocky to farm.
Matt:And am I correct? You said the settlers came through here and saw this Flint rock. I've always been told that it was actually Zebulon Pike that named them in his journal and then went on found Pike's peak of course. is that close to correct? Or is that a tale that I heard somewhere else?
Luke:I've heard as well. You know, and, and that Flint is used by native Americans before pike ever made it here. It's it's well known to be used as tools for native Americans and, and was traded all across the United States. And so you can go across the United States and, and identify that that flint or chert that was pulled from the Flint Hills and taken other places in the United States to trade for, for other flint or, or, you know, other jewelry or whatever.
Matt:So we do have a little bit of farming in the Flint Hills and I'm very little bit, but that's all done down in the, in the lower areas where we've had soil erosion and close to rivers and streams.
Luke:Yep. And honestly, the, after that, that ocean receded, it was primarily an ocean floor that was relatively flat. But after the ocean receded, we had high levels of moisture and rainfall and erosion. And that's what created the Hills is that that rainfall essentially just cut away through weathering is what the common term is, or the, the more PC term, you know, versus a negative commentary of, of erosion. But, you know, essentially created those valleys move the soil from the Hills down into the valleys, into the river bottoms. And then it created actually some pretty deep soil for, for this part of the country. And that's where some relatively productive farmland occurs now.
Matt:Let me make sure I get this right. if it's weathering, then it is okay. If it's erosion it's because of man, let me know when we come up with the similar connotation for climate will ya?.
Luke:sounds good.
Matt:So why are the soil types, and therefore the productivity of these bottom ground, deep soils that we can plow, and we can raise a crop well, a lot wouldn't plow necessarily with no till-- but why are those soil types so much different than areas that didn't have the limestone rock those old native grasslands of, of Iowa and Illinois and, and that
Luke:So relatively speaking, those bottom fields are relatively new compared to some of those areas up in Iowa and Illinois. Up in our Hills, you know, obviously just shallow soils, the rock is so close to the surface that we just can't get our root system and we can, we can really grow tall grass down in our river bottoms. And when they talk about, you know, does Zebulon pike coming through or other settlers coming across these plains and getting into grass that's as high as a saddle horn and even taller. That's where those grasses occurred were in those deep soils of the river bottoms. Those areas had been deemed productive. And so those have been farmed and now we're seeing corn soybeans and wheat growing on those areas.
Matt:So when you're talking about relatively new soils give us a range of dates. How old are these Hills? When did all this happen? Obviously we weren't here, but what are some of the estimates
Luke:yeah. So ocean was here 300 million years ago and, you know, give or take a hundred million.
Matt:close enough for us.
Luke:And so then after those oceans receded actually primarily a spruce forest in this area. And interesting enough, the reason we know that it was a spruce forest was because of pack rat middens pack rats if you don't know, or a small mammal that loved to create stashes or caches, I guess, is what you'd call them. And, and we found these caches back in caves of spruce trees and spruce pine cones. So that was evidence that at one time, that's what was over this area. And as changing climate, I guess you'd call that climate change. You know,
Matt:Changing climates: natural. Climate change is manmade. There we go. We solved it.
Luke:And so, you know, things have changed where the, those spruce trees and pine trees weren't favored because of drought because of dry weather and because of temperature. And we actually started favoring grasses and those grasses were also favored by a disturbance within the system as fire. You know, these massive fires would, would rage across this area, destroy the pine trees and the spruce trees and any other trees that were trying to grow
Matt:grow.
Luke:plant that was adapted were grasses. And so those grasses were favored when we had low moisture, high fire return interval. And these fires would, would just rage across here and create, you know, fires much more intense than even these fires that we've seen occur in central part of Kansas, you know, the Anderson Creek fire, for example, you know, we'd even say those fires are probably more intense than that. And so it's hard to even imagine, you know, how intense they were, but they had a huge impact on creating grasslands. And honestly, when we talk about tall grass Prairie, the climate, the amount of moisture we receive the soil depth is it better suited for trees. You know, those are all the right conditions for, for trees to grow. But because we had that fire, and it raged from Southwest and Northeast, we changed those trees to grasses because those grasses could be tolerating that fire that comes through. And so really switched those plants from woody vegetation to the more grasses.
Matt:One topic that gets a lot of discussion around Flint Hills Cattleman's meetings or landowner meetings, tall grass meetings, is this Woody invasion of the great Plains? You're telling me that that's what this is still supposed to be is a forest. And if not for fire, that's what it would be. Not necessarily a, a native grassland?
Luke:Yeah. Yep. And fire is, is that one thing that created the grasslands and as we remove that fire from the system, then it's wanting to go back to trees and, you know, those trees, like I said, they're suited to, to grow in this type of moisture and this type of soil versus, you know, those, those soils that are out west and the climate out west, that, that don't favor trees, Eastern Kansas yeah. If you give those trees and opportunity, and as we see they, they grow like crazy. And so with that fire being removed, that's really created a challenge in tall grass Prairie and the Flint Hills of this Woody encroachment. A Woody species, you know, like Eastern red, Cedar Osage, orange, or hedge trees, honey, locust trees, and so we've got these, these trees that are able in the absence of fire that essentially out-compete that grass.
Matt:So all these years I have kind of had in my head that when we see a tree in a native tall grass, pasture, locust, Eastern red, Cedar hedge, even throw sericea lespediza And we talked about a lot of these things two weeks ago on our podcast with Glen collinge, but when we see this invasion of where these species, I always blame myself. Or blame us as the settlers, the white man that came in here and messed this up by either to plow it or putting in fences where cattle would overgraze at the south edge or, or whatever the case may be, that, that this, this invasion of Woody species into this thousand year old tract of native tall grass prey was our fault. And what you're telling me is that the only thing that we probably did wrong was maybe breaking it up and building homes and building ranches and outbuildings, so that these great big fires that came through and cleared all those trees out can't happen naturally anymore. Would that be close?
Luke:know, and even as European settlement came across and folks came to this part of the country, fire was a huge concern. know, you see it in books, see it in movies that that, that was a huge fear, you know, and because they didn't have a way to stop it. And so as early as they could, they wanted to create barriers and, you know, farming around the homestead to, to create bare ground so that it wouldn't burn their house when a fire came across. And so, as we advanced, we created even better methods to control that fire. And fortunately the Flint Hills region, we still have that fire culture. We recognize the benefit of that fire. However, sometimes our fires just can't be as intense as they need to be to do the damage that we need to do on the trees. Because as you increase intensity, you increase risk. That risk is going to burn the neighbor's house down. And that's when fire becomes a really bad situation. And so, you know, that's, that's on everybody's mind in the spring in the Flint Hills is we want to burn to, you know, kind of reduce some woody invasion, but we can't get to where we can't control it. And so, yeah, that's, it's great to live in that, that community that, that still has that fire culture. But, you know, we recognize that there's certainly risk involved.
Matt:one thing that I, as we talk about using fire and we, again, we talked about prescribed fire two weeks ago with Glenn. One thing that I think I have learned and noticed is that this burning every single spring, especially at the same time of year, often, we get rid of too much. That's my opinion. We get rid of too much of that of that fuel load or that growth of, of grass. And we're not able to get down into those draws and get some of the big trees and the Woody species we want to do. And that's one reason that we here at Dale banks have changed and, and tried to do, you know, a fire every three years, or even sometimes a fire every four or five years to where we've got more fuel. And, and I think we've seen that be more effective in getting into those, but, you know, I think that's one of the things it's easier to string fire and do those prescribed burns today with the equipment we have... aTVs, things like that, whereas. 30 and 40 years ago, even when we were doing prescribed burns, we weren't necessarily doing them every April. and so we probably got a little hotter fires and maybe that was one reason. Now we do need to stop and have a bit of an aside. Sericea less, buddy's a Woody specie that is fairly recent into the fight with keeping the Flint Hills, the Flint Hills, or keeping the Flint Hills grass, I should say that one's a little different animal in terms of using prescribed fire, at least in the spring to control it is not?
Luke:Yep. Yep. Yeah. There's some research by K state that has shown that, that late summer burn early fall, so targeting about September one shows some benefit to, to try to tackle some
Matt:to tackle some screenshots and you can get some of the other Woody species then too. It just, it's a major change, and from a grazing standpoint and overwintering standpoint, there's still some to consider at least on what's your unintended consequences are there,
Luke:Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, the thought that you can't light green grass on fire.
Matt:on
Luke:You know, and that was kind of put to bed whenever we started doing these late summer burns. And as long as we had a pretty decent mulch layer underneath that green grass, then we'd go ahead and be able to carry that fire across the pasture. And, the idea of. That summer burn on the sericea less bodies would be to take that top growth off and prevent it from going to seed. Sericea is a late blooming plant. So it typically blooms in the month of September. And so if we can take that plan off early September, late August, then we'll prevent it from being able to flower that year, but then also germinates some seed. And that seedling stage of sericea lespediza is very vulnerable to competition, and it's also vulnerable to overwintering or winter kill. And so if we can get some of that seed to germinate in the fall, then we'll hopefully kill it with a freeze over the winter.
Matt:we've done a little bit of fall burning here and and it's just, like you said, I was amazed as we saw green grass. Go up and smoke and basically turn nearly everything black. And if it didn't kill the plant, or even some of the smaller trees, it basically steamed baked their leaves and they died about four or five days later which was amazing to me, but that we could even carry a fire. It's different. It's not near as, not nearly as sexy and not near as impressive as a, as an April or March burn is. But it does get the job done just in a slower of steam baked fashion. My, my biggest hesitation is still what did we do to those native plants or maybe months, but not more than a couple before that killing frost when we need to... and maybe you need to talk a little bit about leaving, taking half and leaving half and, and allowing those perennial plants Put nutrients their soil reserves in the root reserves, down in the soil so that they can come back and do it again next year. And for centuries later, there been any research on what we're doing to that native plant to, to know what are some of the unintended consequences that we may be placing when we do these fall? Especially the late fall burns?
Luke:There really hasn't that I've seen on that original research that K state did on fall burning or late summer burning of sericea, you know, it was actually in an ungrazed setting. And so not practical for, for the rancher, but they are starting to do a little bit more research on that. You know, just common thinking, if you think about what we're doing to that perennial plant, you know, or big blue stem, Indian grass, the desirable ones that we want to keep out there, we're taking that, that growth off that, that above ground vegetation off at a time where that plant wants to be switching to build. Carbohydrates in its root reserves. And so you're changing that, that growth of that plant from building root reserves to now it has to say, oh, Hey, I got to actually regrow and put more leaf so I can get to that point where I can start making my food again. And so at that point, when we do that burn, we're pulling from that root reserve, we're building leaf until we can make its own food, and then it can start putting reserves back into its roots. So we're going to weaken that grass plant, just like we would weaken that sericea lespediza plant. And so I encourage folks to, to consider that in our grazing plan, the following year, you know, know that, that we stressed that grass plant out. And so our management probably needs to change to account for that and to make sure that, you know, my might have a 10% lighter stocking rate and then we need to ask ourselves, okay, can I, can I afford it a 10% lighter stocking rate? If it saves me from having to spend$25 an acre on aerial broadcast of that, sericea plant that following year, then maybe that you can afford that. And so it's just, you know, it comes down to economics and making those management changes that hopefully might short-term be a little hard to swallow, but long-term will benefit you.
Matt:with Any management decision that we make on the farm or ranch, we have to recognize all the consequences, both intended and unintended, and I think this is a classic case. You know, we talked about sericea lespediza... am I too far off by saying that sericea was believed to be a plant that could help control and limit and reduce soil erosion. And was there for maybe even included in some mixes that were planted on pond dams and on lake dams and riparian areas to reduce the soil erosion and that a great job, run it anywhere you wanted it to in the Ozarks in Southwest, Missouri and then all of a sudden, once it got into our native grasslands it went from a opportunity to reduce soil erosion to a basically it's the scourge of, of the Flint Hills over the last 20 or 30 years. and you know unintended consequences.
Luke:Probably can't count on on both hands How many of those species that we look back and think you know they were brought here to benefit and they turned into being a huge headache you know Osage orange trees for for hedge rows you know Cedar trees
Matt:For sure.
Luke:Old world blue stem You know we haven't even started talking about that And you know that was that was this next best grass to to use as a forage resource It was drought tolerant It would grow anywhere Same with sericea lespediza It was drought tolerant would grow anywhere And so it was brought here to solve a problem and it created a bigger problem than what we solved And that's for sure
Matt:yeah. It seems like we as humanity pretty good at
Luke:how are Which you know is the great thing about living in a native plant community of the tall grass Prairie You know most of our plants that we have out there other than some of these invasives were here before we came as settlers, as native Americans, they were where they were growing there and thriving And it's a Testament to the ranchers in the Flint Hills The fact that we've been able to preserve that you know a lot of different places across the United States across the world those native plants are no longer there, they've been replaced fortunately here within the Flint Hills region we still hold true to our our native grasses, you know some 60 different species and native grasses in the Flint Hills and over 300 different wild flowers and forbs And and they're all still here. Now as ranchers there are some management that we have to do to keep them here but you know honestly speaking they they do a good job
Matt:they do a good job at it. I really had never thought about how different those of us growing up in a native grassland, with the diversity that we see throughout the year, especially at different times a year. And these in these Flint Hills pastures I had never heard the term monoculture. Or monoculture ag or any of these things until the last five to seven years. And I hear it more the last six months to a year than I have probably heard it a, the 10 before, but it's becoming a huge deal. And especially in, in production farming, this biodiversity, I mean, you know, you talked about Iowa and Illinois being this sea of grass, this six to 10 foot, probably tall native, tall grass, big blue stem, Indian grass switchgrass stuff that grows three to five feet tall here in a good year. If we let it, and and then it doesn't get grazed down, there was probably twice as high. And today we still have that diversity Flint Hills because of the limestone rock. And because even as hard as we tried, we couldn't tear that stuff up during the homestead act days. Now... biodiversity in the old tall grass Prairie of Illinois and Indiana instead of corn and beans is beans and
Luke:Yep
Matt:I mean, but there's this return or at least in discussion about this return to plant diversity and away from monoculture cropping, do, how do these ecosystems between a range land and a pasture and a crop land, whether they're in the exact same area or exact same county, or just across the great Plains, how does that function most effectively and efficiently? And can it, as we, as we work to try to improve footprint, if you will, on nature?
Luke:Yeah So we've always recognized that our native plant community of tall grass Prairie and even mid grass and short grass is very diverse You know a lot of different species out there. One of the things that we're just starting to learn more about would be that diversity underneath the soil and within the soil and how diverse that is and how many different organisms are in there and and what kind of organisms they are and what they do for us. It's interesting As as humans we don't really recognize and understand the things that we don't see and...
Matt:sometimes we don't recognize or understand that, which we do. Like, I mean, honestly,
Luke:And so you know as researchers are looking more at this diversity below ground And you know above ground too but you know just recently comparing native tall grass Prairie or grassland systems versus crop land systems and recognizing what kind of diversity we have in that soil and and cover crops and soil health and a big
Matt:The
Luke:push from our agency recently to try to improve soil quality has really given us a lot of information on on how diverse that soil can be As long as we feed those organisms with That community within that ecosystem. You know if we can consider that soil and ecosystem it's got just as many or more species of soil microorganisms than we do of macro organisms you know above ground So it's just learning about that in a cropping setting where we have an intensive system where we're working that ground and and applying nutrients man-made nutrients and man manmade chemicals we see a big drop in that level of diversity within that soil. But if we can incorporate A diverse mix of cover crops and other cash crop species, Then we can really see quickly those organisms and that diversity within that soil improve. And so you know whenever we have more diversity, it seems like that that system is much healthier and those organisms do a lot of things that we don't understand. Even in you know all different types of communities whether it be a tall grass community or a cropping community, those organisms can transfer nutrients from one plant to another And so for example you have a corn crop that it needs a Boron nutrient of some sort you know so it's going to ask that soil organism,"Hey go get me a a little bit of boron." and they'll take that more on and transfer it through their root system The mycorrhizal fungi within that soil will give that boron element to that that corn plant, so that you know at a time of need those organisms can do that And so it's really a fascinating ecosystem underneath the soil as well as as an ecosystem above.
Matt:You know, there's been a of discussion around cover crops for the last decade, And we have participated a lot in this. We S I've, I think I've talked about our, our foray when I had Shawn Tiffany on here, our foray into cover crops was when I broadcast applicated, turnip seeds onto hard dry. Corn ground that we had just chopped silages at the base of the plant and scalped everything. And it was hard as a rock, and we spread turnips and got a big rain and it washed them all down into furrows and it w it, it didn't work very well. The next year I got smart and mix it in with some barley and some rye and drilled it in. And man, we've been, we've been cover croppers ever since. And we look at it as a way to bring in the holistic approach... when we've got livestock, as our focus, we can grow feed for them, them, strip graze, hopefully them on these farm fields, return those nutrients to the soil. Relatively inexpensive gain off of that, and then come right back in and go monoculture ag for three to six months with either a corn, wheat, or soybean crop, and then turn right back around and do it again. And, and I think there's benefit in there, but I'll be honest. We've got a couple of fields that we go almost strictly cover crops on just for grazing and occasional haying. And, it's just wild to see the diversity and the plant diversity there that we can, that we can make. And I sometimes scratch my head because it's not that difficult. It is an increased level of management. These cover crops are a lot less predictable in terms of their growth, terms of what output you're actually going to get. You know, you, you put 12 seeds into a mix and one year you may get mainly cereal grains. And the next year you may get Turnips and radishes and brassicas. You very rarely get a majority of nitrogen fixers as much as I'd like to, but the legumes usually just kind of get by and find the open spots and, and get what sun they can. But I always scratch my head and say, why are people not using these more to build soil health, to reduce their need for fertilizer? Well, guess what all of a sudden with nitrogen and urea and potassium and prod everything going sky high, now there's a lot of interest in cover crops and rightfully so. And I don't think that trend is going to change. This is not a flash in the pan. Everybody that I read and listened to, Energy prices aren't going down for quite a while, and so therefore fertilizers are probably not reducing in price either. So we're not gonna, we're not going to go deep into cover crops. I know you could answer any questions we had, but that is one thing that I think allows us to do this function of ecosystems, whether we are talking about cash crops that are probably going to be largely a monoculture at least for a few months or grazing of these farm lands, especially here in the Flint Hills, that probably should have never been turned into farmland should still be that sea of native tall grass, but because my ancestors ripped them up through the 1860s and 1870s, and I guess some are still ripping them up today with soybeans going,
Luke:Yeah
Matt:because they did. And now here we are. And, and I guess that's something that we could talk a little bit about is, is returning... if we do want to return an area that is maybe not productive enough native tall grass, do we ever, ever get anywhere close a true native, tall grass
Luke:Yeah So you know we've seen some evidence over the past 70 years you know of of those folks that that homesteaded this country you know broke out some areas that never should have been broke out They farmed them for however many years before they either moved off the place or went broke or you know needed needed more grass to feed their livestock just kind of a change in direction And so it was either let go back which is a common term of of an area that was farmed at one time within this within this Flint Hills region or it was actually seated back to
Matt:was back to
Luke:Some warm season grasses you know just a small mix of of big blue stem and in grass or tended to be seeded back to fescue or brome or something like that. You can you can look at a map you can walk across the field and you can look and see exactly the boundary of those old fields. And the reason you're you're able to see that is because of the lack of diversity one within the grass species, but then also the lack of production on those grasses. That farming back when you know there was no commercial fertilizer and and those farming practices probably weren't the best for soil health
Matt:There weren't no- till planters drills either.
Luke:And so what it did to that soil you know essentially pulverized it pulled all the nutrients out of it now that we know more about solar organisms destroyed all the soil organisms within that that are tied to that native tall grass Prairie. And so you know it's really lacking all those great things that need to be in there in the soil And so we can go and we can A mix of big blue stem and Indian grass and switch and you know a lot of different Forbes as well but we don't have that community that we need in the soil in order to really make those plants express themselves and to be fully productive. And so that's that's the challenge We can certainly put grasses out there We can really you know grow quite a bit of grass but they're never going to be as productive as that native sod that native tall grass prairie That's never been touched by a plow. And you can see you know right at that old fence line where they were farming versus where they never plowed Then we you know we also have a challenge with the grass species that we have to to plant those grass species You know we can we can go buy big blue stem and Indian grass over the counter you know at a at a co-op. The challenge you have with that is that those grasses are the same species of the species that we have out in two are our tall grass Prairie but just the breeding program that they use to build the seed on those grasses you know essentially selected for those grasses that would produce more seed and more stem and not so much leaf. So they were selecting for that that seed and and not so much for the native type of grass that we have out there
Matt:once again, maybe man's intervention and trying to make a better mousetrap has taken us further away from. We needed to be in the first
Luke:Right And and you can you can tell those cattle they don't like to graze that that area that, had been farmed you know they'll they'll avoid it and primarily because that grass just isn't as tasty. And again it's the soil organisms that are within that that have been destroyed by those farming practices and you know allowing the beneficial nutrients to get up into that plant, And that allows that grass to be more palatable and better tasting for that animal
Matt:so most of us have those little patches of go back native that are either separated or now part of a bigger pasture with native. Let's say we've got quarter section pasture that's fenced off and 40 acres of it in the corner were farmed and are now go-back native. What's the best practice that we can do. And you name mean, let's say money is no object. What's the best practice we can do in the next years. Let's say get that back as close as possible to its native state.
Luke:So my idea is is to try to replicate how That native sod and those native grasses evolved and they evolved under a huge grazing pressure by a native herbivore bison and what that would what those bison
Matt:Now wait a second Luke... Don't make me, don't make me sell my Angus cows and get bison. I shouldn't have said money was no object.
Luke:I might be able to to to slide cattle in here in a little
Matt:Okay. All right, go ahead.
Luke:so take take that herbivore whether it be bison or cattle and try to replicate what they did what those 90 bison did before you know settlers came to this area and they would come and they would just take a place down to the dirt. And then they would get off of it for a long period of time It could be a year it could be six months It could be two years where you had total rest. But during that time of very very intense grazing, they essentially took all that above ground biomass They either put it in their rumen or they put it in the soil with their hoof and they pooped out everything that they ate right there And then they hammered that with their Huff into the soil And so repeated treatments of that over 10 years would be On your way to improving the diversity within that soil it actually would do really great favor for your grasses because they've evolved under that intense grazing pressure And so the response you would see on those grasses would be improved. And so the problem you have is 10 years you're going to start that process
Matt:process correct assets
Luke:evolve in 10 years they didn't evolve in a hundred you know it was 10,000 years when they were able to to to to survive you know select those grasses that survive that type of pressure And so if you do that then you can kind of start remediating that soil to make it improved and and make it better.
Matt:So ideally fence it off first and then hammer it with as many cattle as you can put on it for a short grazing time. Is there an ideal window in your opinion? Early spring, mid.
Luke:you'd probably want to prefer dormancy if you could you know and the challenge you have with doing it during the growing season you know oftentimes it's a heavier rainfall event And so exposing that soil you know it would be a challenge taking that growing grass plant you'd essentially change its behavior from grass production to root production If you're pulling from that roots to grass production. And so dormancy would be the safe time And that would be where you'd have full growth add on to that pasture, And you could get you know as much as that growth incorporated in that soil as possible.
Matt:So then the most important part I'm going to say maybe next to returning those nutrients to it is get off of it during the mid boil during all the growing season, ideally, and let it a lot of biomass. Let it go to seed, if it will. Some of those grasses, I think are almost sterile. But, but stay off of it and let it rest through the, through the growing season and late growing season, especially.
Luke:And that's ideal you know you just have too that that never occurred The ideal conditions never occurred back when bison would come around you know they they'd get there when they get there And there was a lot of them and and so same with fire You know we talked a little bit about fire We talk about ideal fire in this part of the country Ideally be early April, but you know there really you know we're opening our eyes to the less than ideal situations but actually getting some benefits on some of those what we would say would be ideal conditions.
Matt:So still on the go back country, and I've never done this, but I'm, I'm strongly considering it. We have a no-till drill that we use in our farming operation on the cover crops, mainland and planting wheat. What happened. If you go into those, go back areas and intercede something. And I'm not even thinking native grasses, I'm thinking probably annuals, but it'd be cool to do perennial. most of our go back is not fenced off anymore. And so I think that some way either with temporary electric fence or building fences around these little 20 and 40 and 80 acre patches, which I can't imagine wanting to do, but could, could we intercede some kind of a cover crop mix that would have some legumes that would have a lot of biomass that would make a lot of organic matter and, and maybe we can still use them to graze them but returned some soil nutrients and put some soil cover and just build some organic matter into that soil? Is that something that's been done? Have you seen that work successfully?
Luke:Other parts of the world have done that And they've come to you know the Flint Hills of Kansas or Eastern Kansas and have recommended that I think there's a couple of concerns that you have. One would be even getting any of those cover crops to germinate our soils are naturally low in phosphorus slash naturally low in nitrogen. And so in order to have any success on some of those annuals that you want to plan out there to build root systems and to provide nutrients to the soil. I don't think you're going to get them to germinate because of just a very low Nutrient conditions that we have. Phosphorus tests in the Flint Hills you know are like two two or three. And so you know not a not a as high to to get anything to germinate. The other concern that I would have would be you know we have this native system that we want to favor native plant community. Introducing different species within that native plant community-- If we can get them to germinate-- are we just introducing our next world Bluestem or are our next three. CLS Amitiza You know
Matt:Some would say fescue.
Luke:True Yeah So that would be you know my main concern with you know let's let's take and manage the the grasses that we want, and stop trying to kill out the grasses that we don't want, because if we can favor those grasses that we want and make them healthier then that will help out-compete some of those grasses that we don't want And we can utilize those grasses and go back to maybe improve that soil condition.
Matt:It seems like I graduated from college back in the mid nineties, the buzzword then, and nearly every business publication that I read was synergy. And figuring out how to make two plus two equals five. I think as you talk about things like and as you talk about biodiversity and plant species and, and all these things, I mean, that's what they are. They're, they're synergistic relationships. Oftentimes we don't even recognize, and maybe we're not looking hard enough. Maybe we're not supposed to. Maybe that's just part of, of God's plan mother nature's ability to, regenerate herself and, and we just need to let it happen. But know, I have to sit here and ask myself, is there a reason other than just to make more work for farmers and ranchers? Is there a reason that Les BTSA and old world Bluestem? Now, granted, those are crops that man introduced. They just got into areas that man didn't want them. There may be some things that, that they're actually supposed to, supposed to heal supposed to cover some areas up. And who knows what? I, I can't imagine that there is a beneficial purpose for sericea less BTSA, but someday we may look back and say, this is exactly why it grew, where it grew that there was a need.
Luke:at Georgia I think would argue that you know if they're listening
Matt:Oh yeah. It's their alfalfa.
Luke:they're they're loving sericea less but either
Matt:Yup,
Luke:the United States
Matt:Yeah, yeah think even closer than that, I mean, there's some Gulf coast states that talk about they proudly call it poor man's alfalfa and, and they'll harvest it. And maybe there's a time there's a very brief time, at least in the Flint Hills that we can get ruminants to eat it before the tannins come in. And, and but it's a very brief time and I don't think we can stock enough now. I don't think we have enough time on this podcast to talk goats, but that that's an option. And in a very natural one and one that doesn't, again, doesn't come without its challenges and its unintended consequences and, and logistical challenges, et cetera. But there are ways natural or at least non-chemical ways to to work on that as well.
Luke:Yeah I might just add to your comment about our native plant community and and filling areas that you know disturbance and and if you go out into the native plant community you can see native species that some people would call weeds would increase in areas of disturbance. And you know a lot of times I will get folks coming in and bringing me a plan say for example goldenrod. Goldenrod you know as this is expressing itself right now And they're like what is this And how do I kill it And I'm like well I can tell you how to kill it but do we want to kill it
Matt:it,
Luke:Yeah You know it's a native plant And what it's doing is it's telling you something it's telling you that that is
Matt:you that
Luke:Maybe a weakened grasp community out there And so why is it being weakened? Is it grazing Is it you know another disturbance you know a cattle trail or a vehicle trail? You know something that's causing that plant to express itself. And I was out in the pasture yesterday and we did see a large area of disturbance that had golden rod in it. It was an area that that he fed mineral for quite a few years. Hadn't fed mineral air in a while but it was just a concentration of of livestock and that that small period of time now it's recovering that golden rod is expressing itself within that golden rod was 3g less but outside of that golden it There was no sericea And so that grass community outside of that disturbed area was able to out-compete that sericea. You know we we recognize that this ratio is is one that will come in any pasture regardless of of management, But we are seeing evidence that on certain management and proper management we're competing against some of these invasive species. And if we can just kind of work through that process and say okay not only are you managing for a healthy grass community but you can also out-compete some of these plants that are wanting to come in and we'll take over your pasture And just you know working through that with the rancher is one of the more exciting things that I get to do
Matt:Indicator species, right? That's that's what we talk about golden rod, and even some indicators of a healthy Prairie led plant and, and some of these that yeah, th that are indicators. and if you didn't know that, that that, you'd see a bunch of these weeds, broadleafs Forbes, whatever we want to properly turn them, but we you'd see these non big four grasses, big Bluestem, little Bluestem, Indian grass, switch grass, and say, oh, man, I got to jump in here and spray instead of stepping back and saying, okay, what's that mean? Or asking someone like you what's that mean? And, and finding out that not only do I not want to kill it I probably want to mimic what's happening in this area, the pasture elsewhere, because because that's telling me. That's diverse mix of you say, 60 species of
Luke:yeah 300
Matt:flowers and Forbes that are in the native tall grass Prairie. It's a pretty healthy
Luke:is
Matt:You know, we talked a little bit about community of the plant type and thought. There's a lot of things that we can learn from mother nature and from a, a healthy tall grass
Luke:right
Matt:and you name the analogies that we can start naming between humans and, and nature and communities of grass. But you know, I'm, I'm still reading the sand
Luke:Right
Matt:it's a staple of a lot of conservationists and written ago. but in that, Mr. Leopold puts those into into those types of framework and let's learn more from the grasslands and from nature about life not worry about, okay, do I need or what don't I need, how do I get rid of this and make more of that, but why is this like it is because there's probably. And it may be intentional. It may not be, but yeah, there's, there's a lot of lessons there if we'll just step back and instead of trying to fix it, because humans are smarter than everyone and everything stepping back and saying maybe this is an indicator that things are going about. Right.
Luke:Yup
Matt:So sometimes Luke as I have talked with people about farmers and ranchers being what I like to call the original environmentalists. We depend on these native Prairie's. We depend on these, these fields to not just make money for us this year, to make hopefully a livelihood for generations to come. Sometimes I will, or my dad will have an argument with someone that says, you know, we, we need more trees that we can more photosynthesis and have cleaner air and cleaner streams and everything else. And when we say actually our neck of the woods, maybe I shouldn't use that. We have a description our area, trees actually do a poorer job than grass does in terms of cleaning the air, cleaning the water, holding the soil, everything else is that, fair?
Luke:Say that's fair, you know, and as
Matt:So we can kill a tree for earth
Luke:well, I'd be okay with that Yeah. I'd,
Matt:Okay, good.
Luke:four of them for Earth Day. So, you know, it's the idea of how was that plant structured? And our grass plants, you know, have.
Matt:you know have
Luke:Some above ground biomass, but they have a bunch of below ground biomass. You know, our grassroots are fibrous, filamentous and so they'll, they'll grow and they'll spread as deep as they can go. And that root system is great at keeping that soil where it's at and that root system and in that plant community is great at making the structure of that soil to allow water, to infiltrate into it and not run off. And so, and then when we have water run across that grass plant, it does a great job at just laying down and protecting that soil. Now, if we consider a tree community, oftentimes below that closed canopy forest below the, that, that large tree canopy, you won't find very much growth of any vegetation at all. And so when water runs across it, when water tries to infiltrate down into it, it's restricted and it allows that water to carry that soil off. And so those trees down along those draws where that water's concentrated, we see a lot more soil erosion around that than we do.
Matt:that than we do if that
Luke:Draw or that concentrated water is covered on each bank by grasses. And so I would argue that our grass plants are doing a much better job at holding that soil, making that soil stay where it's at and allowing that water to that does fall from precipitation and infiltrate down into the soil system. We can talk about trees you know, creating oxygen for us. You know, I think that's something that's that's commonly used and may, maybe not all that accurate. Yeah. Obviously any living plant species is going to produce oxygen, whether that be a tree or whether that be a grass. I think it's just one of those common things that people use to try to justify trees. Naturally speaking,
Matt:speak
Luke:Eastern Kansas. Very few trees occurred before settlement and it was, it was a grass land state. It was a plain of grasses from horizon to horizon, it was nothing but grasses. We would find some trees down along the river bottoms. So some of the more major rivers that would come through Eastern Kansas, you'd find Oak species, you'd find walnuts and sycamores, but they were strictly there next to that, that stream. And oftentimes on the downwind side of that stream, because those fires did rage from Southwest to Northeast, just with that, that typical wind that we would receive. And so that river system, because they would slow that fire intensity down, you'd only find those trees on the north and Eastern side of that, that river system.
Matt:and that's where most of the houses were built as well. Again, like you said, at the start of the podcast, just from a protection standpoint, natural protection, that's a time and again, that's where most of our early homesteads, at least on this ranch, we're on the north and east sides of the river. And, and we've got a picture. My dad's mother's ancestors were some of the first at this end actually were Amy and my house is just a quarter mile away and they have a picture of their house, which they finally built a home in 1869 that old rock house is still there it is completely overgrown with just junk trees and it's nothing but a deer hunters paradise and surrounded by fields on both sides all the way to the river, there are two hedge rows and we just find to try to keep those trees beat back. Picture in 1869, shows them standing out in front of their smokehouse and their ho home and, and stables. And there's not a tree in sight for three quarters of a mile until they get to the west branch of the, of the fall river. it's just amazing that, yeah, that was 150 years ago, but still, I just, I, I would have given anything to see this country when it didn't have, didn't have trees every, every quarter mile.
Luke:Yeah, And some of those early photographs of, you know, cities downtown,
Matt:downtown,
Luke:could see past those buildings, those new buildings, and there isn't a tree inside. You know, now obviously the community wants to plant shade trees, you know, for energy efficiency and those types of things. And I don't mind shade trees around the house, but when it comes to out in her pastures that's where, you know, we need to evaluate and ask ourselves, is it really need to be there? You know, the, the argument is commonly for livestock is that I need shade for my livestock. We also, would say that, yeah, a healthy cattle probably doesn't need as much shade as something that, that might be sick. And so if we just maintain the health of our livestock, then probably doesn't need as much shade and those livestock or, Take advantage of whatever amenities that you provide them. And whether that be a pond that's open to where they can swim in or a shade tree. They're going to take advantage of that. If you don't provide that shade, then I think they'll do just fine.
Matt:They're going to take advantage of whatever is available to them, kind of like the humans who manage
Luke:Exactly.
Matt:So that may bring us full circle and probably a good place to, to end our conversation today, Luke. But I really appreciate the time as always. And and the insights that you bring and, and I guess I would encourage well, anyone around what Greenwood county, Woodson, Wilson, elk, and Chautauqua, Kansas counties reach out to you or any of your specialists that work with you. But is one of those times that I think that, effective, efficient use of federal tax dollars for most of us in the ag community is a pretty good thing. And we're. I'm often guilty of saying, well, we don't need to any of these taxes and it's all just a big waste, but here's one opportunity, where we have resources here and generally very well versed resources in our NRCS folks that we can rely upon, not just for equip funding and things like this for projects, but that technical assistance, just that ear that we can call on and say, Hey, I just saw this weed out in my pasture and I didn't know what the heck to do with it before I go and start buying two 40 or remedy or whatever else and, and zapping it. So I appreciate you being here and then encourage everybody to, to reach out anytime you can use those in RCS folks to, to do what we do even better.
Luke:All right. Yeah. Thanks for the invitation, Matt and I had fun. appreciate it.
Matt:You bet. Thanks again, Luke, and have a great afternoon.
Luke:All right. You too.
Matt:Thanks for joining us for practically ranching, brought to you by Dalebanks Angus. If you enjoyed the podcast, heck even if you didn't... help us improve by leaving a comment with your review wherever you heard us. And if you want to listen again, click subscribe and catch us next week. God bless, and we look forward to visiting again soon.