David Kleinschmidt is an Ag Economist by training. This background, coupled with a passion for soil health, holistic management and practical management make him a wealth of knowledge and perspective.
On this episode, we cover a host of topics: Cover Crops, Soil Health, Microbes, GMOs, Chemistry, Biology, Profit over Production, Organic Matter. David used so many terms that I finally got tired of writing them all down in my notes.
And little did I know that my recording software was basically self-destructing the podcast as we spoke. So you'll have to put up with a largely unedited version (see how many times you hear the land-line ring or our 3-year-old in the background) with TERRIBLE sound quality.
But for those willing to put up with the noise, you're in for an interesting conversation about farming, ranching and as David appropriately states, "The Business of Growing Things."
David Kleinschmidt
217-370-3799
dkleinsc@gmail.com
David Kleinschmidt is an Ag Economist by training. This background, coupled with a passion for soil health, holistic management and practical management make him a wealth of knowledge and perspective.
On this episode, we cover a host of topics: Cover Crops, Soil Health, Microbes, GMOs, Chemistry, Biology, Profit over Production, Organic Matter. David used so many terms that I finally got tired of writing them all down in my notes.
And little did I know that my recording software was basically self-destructing the podcast as we spoke. So you'll have to put up with a largely unedited version (see how many times you hear the land-line ring or our 3-year-old in the background) with TERRIBLE sound quality.
But for those willing to put up with the noise, you're in for an interesting conversation about farming, ranching and as David appropriately states, "The Business of Growing Things."
David Kleinschmidt
217-370-3799
dkleinsc@gmail.com
Well, thanks for tuning in to episode 23 of practically ranching. When I say tuning in, you might as well be listening to your am radio. In the. 44 30 back in 1980 something, because that's about how good our sound quality is here as David Kleinschmidt. And I talked this afternoon. I apologize starting out, but I will say that as short as we were on sound quality, we were plenty long on knowledge and on information that David shared with us about, farming practices and cover crop rotations. And even how some of the same challenges that we have seen in farming and agronomy can translate over into the cow calf world as well. And looking at our whole enterprise as a, as a holistic type of an operation. David is a really interesting young man. I first met him about five years ago when he was at our bull sale. He at the time was working with a gentlemen in Eastern Oklahoma, and they purchased a bull or two from us. And since then David has broken out and consulted in a lot of different forms and fashions, mainly on the farming side with producers that are looking to improve their operations through cover crops and no till, and just looking again with a fresh perspective. Uh, David went to school actually as an ag economist, and he looks at things like an ag economist would from a dollars and cents standpoint. And from a profit standpoint. But he also recognizes the need to look at our natural resources and be the best stewards of those resources as we can. So I think you're really appreciate David's Approach to his business and to some of the challenges that farmers and ranchers face today and going forth. So thank you once again for tuning in and, putting up with our up and down sound quality, but I think it'll be worth it. If you can make it clear to the end. Because there's some great knowledge here to be shared. David, where are you today? Looks like you're traveling. I see a grain cart going in your rear view mirror,
David:yep. So I'm here in Illinois. Just, traveling down to one of my farms I work with, and, yeah, checking out a lot of the crop. It has been harvested, a lot of ground, been worked, and guys spreading fertilizer and actually a lot of fall in hydras. Looks like it's getting started today. Well,
Matt:you must have a little more moisture up that way than what, we do in this area. I know it's, I know you're not flush with it, but, I'm glad to hear it. How how's harvest looked
David:so far? You know, it, we've been blessed, uh, in this area. I mean, uh, crops are pretty good. Big, variant in soybean planting date and yield there. Um, anywhere from 15 to 20 bushel difference between, you know, end, end of April, planted beans and end of may plant beans. So definitely paid to plant the beans early this year. Corn's been kinda a little bit all over the board, but a lot of guys are pretty happy with it. some areas got a lot of rain in July, timeframe and, and drowned out. some stock integrity issues out there. But all in all, it looks pretty decent here. don't have to go very far across, Mississippi really, and yields pretty poor. you know, it's that drought that you're facing in your environment is kind of spread east and it's hard to say what's gonna happen next year if it keeps spreading this way. I mean, we don't have any real moisture in the forecast this fall for us, so, Yeah, could get interesting. What
Matt:part of Illinois, for the folks listening, what part of Illinois are you, uh, located
David:in? Yeah, so I consider South Central, about an hour, hour and a half east of St. Louis.
Matt:And you said from St. Louis West is where you're here in some of the, more drought related issues on corn yields? I would even say maybe heat related there in, in June, July when it was
David:pollinating. Yeah, definitely. And same thing with soybeans too. I mean, uh, di really cooled down at nights. like it should have probably, and those plants just stressed and drop blooms and, and pods.
Matt:You said you were on your way to a farm that you consult with. What are some of the main focuses that you have in your business?
David:Yeah, so primarily my business is consulting with, uh, farmers, um, helping them with everything from nutrient management plan, soil testing, deciding, you know, if they need to make a tillage pass, what kind of tillage they should use. helping to select hybrids to match their, management styles. Helping to get guys to adopt the use of no-till strip till, you know, conservation practices along with cover cropping as well, and how to use that and be profitable with it. where a lot of, a lot of guys have tried some cover crops in, in the past and, and maybe have got some cost share money for it, but, seem to always fall short on the yield or whatever. Uh, just, just due to I think a lot of lack of education.
Matt:and so you're trying to figure out how to use those types of things no till strip, till cover cropping, et cetera, to not only reduce soil erosion and, and do the right thing for the environment and, and try to conserve resources as best we can, but also at least be, a net zero in terms of the following yield for cash crops, if not, maybe even improving or reducing the amount of additional nutrients and things.
David:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, seeing that, we can maintain yield, especially on soybeans, maybe even get a, a little tick, a higher yield, but definitely improving our overall profitability. you know, when you can start cutting out some, some passes there and helping to suppress weeds and, understanding how to cycle some of the nutrients biologically with living roots and living plants in there, uh, really helps to pay dividends. I don't think that we realize in agriculture, I know when I went to school, I was never taught that the plants only take up about 10% of the nutrients we applied directly. The other 90% need to be taken up through a microbes gut initially first. It's kind of like, you know, in cattle, you know, you feed the ruen first before you feed the cow. Well, we're feeding the microbes in that room, and it's the same thing in our soil. We're feeding the microbes first. They break down, mineralize out those nutrients, and then that becomes available to that crop. But of that other 90%, only about 50% at most is really taken up by the crop. So a lot of times we we're really over fertilizing and it's, you know, those nutrients are tied up into the clay, uh, and, uh, The clay lasts is in our soil profile, and we're not cycling it due to either compaction or lack of microbial activity or whatever. So, uh, focusing on some of the core principles of soil health that the NRCS really promotes, you know, keeping a living root in the ground, minimizing disturbance, adding diversity, in that, that crop rotation, and then keeping that soil covered at all times, that really enhances that, you know, ability to build basically a house in our soils for our microbes to thrive in and to, to give better water infiltration to, to hold on to more moisture in our soil profile, which leads to more nutrient cycling as well.
Matt:So just in straightforward, simple cowboy logic, and maybe it's different for different regions, but if you were to describe the. Stereotypical corn and bean or in this area, corn, wheat and bean rotation on farmed soils. and you reached into that toolbox that we currently have with tillage practices, strip till no-till, cover crops, cocktails as opposed to single species cover crops. What is the ideal basic entry level for a, for a guy or gal that has been conventional tillage, one crop per year on the farm acres? What's the easiest, most simple rotation for a three, four year type setup? employing all of these different tools that we've got available,
David:probably the easiest baby step is to simply just try to no-till soybeans. Okay. And, Even without a cover crop, if, if you've been a conventional tillage farmer, even a minimal tillage, just try to no-till soybeans into corn stalks. It's really that simple. A lot of times I'll hear, well, you know, it takes more, more herbicides to manage the weeds. Well, you know, I used to be in ag retail sales and the herbicides that we used on conventional tillage were the same as no-till. You know, even, guys that would use a vertical tillage tool and, and hit a field and plant and say, Oh, we don't need a burn hound. Well, all we did was take that pig wheat seed or whatever plant that was out there, and we kind of moved it over a little bit, but we didn't actually, you know, invert that soil. To put the roots on top, you know, and, and so it just kept growing and now we have two 40 D in Dicamba Beans and, and Liberty and that can, you know, be used as a tool to go out there and, and terminate some of those species that we had problems with. But those are gonna be pretty short lived. I mean, we already see that we have resistance in the two 40 D in Dicamba in the south, so it's just a matter of time before it spreads and it's kind of everywhere. so just, just try no-till into, to some cornstalks. if, you know you got weed in the rotation, that's, that's a great, you know, for a simple thing, you know, I know a lot of guys will try to no-till soybeans and some years it can be very profit. Other years, it's a wash. Like this year in our area, we caught early frost, and I don't think those double crop beans will yield 10 bushel. and some years they might yield 40 bushel, well, 40 bushel pays for itself. But if we could go in there and just take that winter wheat crop as that's my cash crop for that growing year, and then following up with a, a cover crop. I mean, we just prime our soils and we can at that time, you know, as long as it rains, we can throw 6, 7, 8 different species in there that that soil maybe is never seen before and feed a whole host of different microorganisms in that, soil profile really gets things churning fast.
Matt:Let's say you've got the farmer that's already using no-till practices and still in that. Corn, wheat and bean rotation. what's, what's his or her next step in terms of adding cover crops to that? ideally?
David:So first thing we had to look at is our planting dates and, and our harvest dates as well. So what are planting dates for our cash crop? What maturity, are we using for our cash crops? When do we anticipate harvest to be, you know, a day's growth in September is worth five days of growth in October. So the earlier we can get that, that seed in the ground, the more growth we'll get on it going into the fall time. Second thing that we gotta look at is what type of residual herbicides did we spray on that cash crop? And are we gonna have residual herbicide carryover that's gonna affect maybe a cover crop. But basically the, the next simple thing would be either cereal rye, head of soybeans, or oat radish blend ahead of corn. Maybe after, soybean harvest, if it comes off in time or after maybe that wheat, and plant that maybe early September, late August or something like that where it's gonna winter kill out. So we don't have to worry about, you know, anything out there in the spring. But it's gonna help to suppress a lot of those winter annuals as well. And you know, if a guy wanted to go in there in the springtime and, and either strip till or no-till corn into it, it's usually pretty forgiven and pretty easy. You'd
Matt:mentioned following a wheat crop, with some kind of a summer cocktail mix of cover crops. What are some of those types of, of, summer annuals that you'd put into that kind of a mix there in June or
David:July? Within the cover crop. I know a lot of guys know of cereal rye, which is a cool season. And, but then you also have warm season species that are, are like the sorghum sedan, grasses, the forage sorghums, the different millets, the sun hemp, and the cow peas and, Hm, beans. Those are all legumes. sunflowers, even okra. There's other Nebraska's out there that a guy could use as well. you know, even putting a radish or a turn up out there in that July timeframe, that's when you're probably gonna get your biggest tuber out of it. Now the biggest misconception is radis just up compaction. Typically they hit that compaction layer and then explode up out the top of the ground and they get really big, and it's the fibrous roots that break up the compaction. And, but yeah, those, those forged sorghums, the millets, You know, those are really nice for being a dual purpose, that you could either use'em for just a soil building or you could hay'em. you could graze'em. and some of'em, you know, you can harvest multiple times as long as you watch your, your cutting height and get a lot of regrowth on that. So you can get multiple cuttings off of that as well. Pretty cheap source of feed then. you do kind of have to watch like this year, with both the, the drought conditions and even early frost in different areas. The sorghums and the sedans, they're known to have crus acid issues and the millets, can have high nitrates, both the. Sorghum sedan, forged sorghums and the millets. They all can have high nitrates if it's dry, but the millets don't have the peric acid issues. you'd have to worry about, you know, if you're, grazing cattle on that. Yeah. I
Matt:know this, this was a year and we have planted several different summer annual mixes behind wheat for the last, well, several years. and we, every summer, and I tell folks, regardless if you're planting a fall planted cover crop or a, a warm season mix after wheat or something, every year's gonna be different. With these cover crop mixes, as opposed to a monoculture single field of corn, beans or wheat, They're vastly different even when you think that yeah, we're not in that big of a drought, but this would be one year that it was big time. Different because just like you had said, where an area should be around 32 to 33 inch average annual rainfall. And if we can get either into moisture right behind that wheat harvest or get one little rain in July, early August, we end up being able to harvest that, that Sudan millet mix. one time pretty high, leaving one leaf or two there, at the base of the stock and then letting that grow back up frost and then we'll graze it through the winter, in its dormant stage to, to miss any presic acid or things like that. This year there was one field that we harvested for hay and the rest of them didn't ever get past. Waist high and you know, that just, that was a function of heat and lack of moisture and everything else. But, it's, it's still gonna be good. Crazy. I think, we have had that killing frost here and so we're gonna go ahead and take some samples and, and check on, on nitrate issues. Hopefully that's not a concern, but we'll wait long enough for the protic acid. Hopefully, if I'm, if I'm correct in this, if you wait a month or so after Frost shouldn't have any protic acid issues on Gras and that, is that accurate?
David:Yeah, you shouldn't, I mean, you, you kind of have to look and, and identify the leaf tissues that have been frosted and have frost damage and then like, you know, we, what? Two, three weeks ago we got our first killing, or not really a killing frost, but as a frost hard enough that it, it showed symptoms on that, that those leaves, and now here we are today and it's gonna be 80 degrees. Yeah. And we've, we've had warm enough days in the last two weeks as well, and the next week here as well, that that plant can still go ahead and, and put out some new tillers. Right. So we kind of have to watch that, you know, as far as if that plant puts out any new tillers, maybe then we gotta wait, you know, that 12 to 14 days after that first frost before we can graze it. But if we see new growth on it, and if they get hit now, now the clock starts over again. So, yeah, sometimes it's just easier just to say, Hey, we're gonna wait until after the first killing hard frost and everything's free frozen out, and nothing's gonna grow back again. And then we going, we're gonna win our graves on it. That's the safest bat.
Matt:Yeah, that's, that's generally what we have done because be like you said, that that green up, that's the worst, right? yeah, especially from a presic acid standpoint. Those are the ones that'll really get you in trouble. we kind of jumped right into grazing of cover crops, and you've heard me tell this story before. I would love to pretend that my intentions were altruistic and noble and trying to care for resources and reduce erosion and and all these things. But the fact of the matter is we were just trying to find some cheap grazing for Angus cows when we embarked in this cover crop thing 15 years ago. And, and, I've learned a lot. Every time we put a. A cocktail in the ground. I learned something that I didn't know before and that's, I enjoy that, but sometimes those lessons are difficult. but, but talk a little bit about livestock and, and implementing the grazing part into this rotation of a cash crop cover crop graze said, said, cover crop and then go into the next cash crop. Is it good, Is it bad? Is it helpful? It's kind of a
David:balance, I suppose. It definitely is a balance. It, it really depends on how you manage your grazing and, you know, if, if you do a graze out or graze all, whatever you wanna call it, and you do a Columbus method, you open the gates, let the cows have at it until it's all gone and you pull it off and you only got one water source, which I know that's what a lot of guys are gonna. the opportunity for them to go and pick out different areas where they're gonna graze, where they're not gonna graze, what they're gonna graze on, what they're not gonna graze on, trailing back and forth to the water. and having some compaction issues can be a real thing. especially, you know, hey, if it turns off wet and we get, you know, a week and a half of rain, two weeks of rain here, you know, and you left them out there, well you're probably not gonna ideally go in there and no-till that next year. We might have to go in and, and, and repair a little bit of areas. but thinking about like what is in that plant, you know, that plant is taking up a lot of different nutrients to be able to grow, and so it's taking up calcium and zinc and magnes and boron and iron and magnesium and copper and nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium, but, About 70 to 80% of what a cow takes a bite of comes out the back end. And so if you can manage it where you know, you're managing your stock entities out there and you know, managing it as a, as a herd mentality, and think of like the bison on the prairies or whatever, where they're moving across there and evenly distributing out those nutrients, they're trampling that cover crop down to the ground where the microbes are. So they're gonna help to start breaking down some of that material, but also you're getting a good even distribution of manure pads instead of just saying, Well, there's one here, and then five feet away, there's another one. And you'll see that that next cash crop, you'd be able to, in that early season, you'll see, you know, the urine areas and manure areas where you got these little, little areas that are dark green and, and it's just sporadic across the field. And if you kept it managed well, you'd have it all the way across the field. Now talking a little bit about the nutrient side there, you know, those plants, especially when we, when we put in cocktail mixes, each one of those plant species has a need for different nutrient at different times. And so they're feeding different microbes, these sugars out of its re system in exchange for these nutrients and our soils in the top, you know, six inches let's say. Cause we all, you know, soil tests in a flower pot and we all farm in a flower pot of six inches. And if we were to look at both the organic and inorganic form of nutrients there, we'd have, we'd realize that there are more nutrients in that soil profile than we could ever fertilize for, but only a small percentage of'em are actually available. And that's the, that inorganic form that's available to those nutrients that year. And so if we just had one species out there, it's only if we gonna feed one, one group of microbes and our opportunity for failure is, is a lot higher than if we had, you know, four or five or 10 different species out there that can access water at different levels. And they help to share nutrients back and forth as well. But that also helps to balance out that diet for that animal as well. But We can't starve a profit into a, a ranch or a farm or anything like that.
Track 1:So it's all part of the digestion and ingest process. So if we think about, the amount of nutrients that an animal requires, and if we're starving that. You know, that cover crop, if we're just treating it as, you know, a plant that we're gonna let go out there and sequester, not fertilize it for anything, we could actually have lower protein values, lower mineral content in that. So, if we're planning on grazing this and we wanna maintain either gains, or body condition or whatever, we gotta make sure that the forage quality is there too. So we may still need to fertilize that, cover crop just to. To get those nutrients in it and then afterwards, you know, I think it's important to still take soil tests and understand what your soils are needing and to either fertilize or not fertilize for that next cash crop needs.
matt_2_10-21-2022_111323:Yeah, I hear stories about folks, you know, completely weaning themselves off of, of commercially applied fertilizers. And, I guess while that's a goal our bigger goal is to be able to have Good reasonably priced feed resources for cows and young stock and whatever we choose to graze on these in the off season and just get more revenue per acre without mining minerals back out, long term. And so I think, yeah, like with so many things, the moderate approach, not necessarily cold Turkey, I'm gonna go from this extreme to that extreme. The moderate approach may be the, the one that, uh, gives us the most return here.
Track 1:Oh, you're absolutely right. We have to remember, like our, our soils are a living, breathing ecosystem and they're microbially dominated. We are too. We're more microbial than what we are human. And you take, you know, an alcoholic, let's say, and you completely pull'em off of the alcohol And they may die. you know? And so if our system, our soil system has just been fed nothing more than, uh, chemical fertilizers all the time, and it's addicted to that. But if we pull it off, it doesn't know how to react with without that input. And so it Can crash and have huge failures. So it's all about weaning. There's all, it's always about balance. You know, the soil tests that I recommend to guys is the Heney Soil Health Test, and that's looking at the microbial life of that soil and the health of that soil to understand when it rains how much of those nutrients will be cycle. And the standard soil test is basically using chemical extractions that, look at, at how much nutrients are in that soil profile. But these extractions are at a pH of. a one. I mean, we're, we're not even taking pH into consideration when we hit it with these, these extractions. So the Haney test is using water because it rains water, and we know that every time it rains that our crops get a flush of growth on there. And it's using acids that plants typically release, um, into the soil profile to, to feed microbes in exchange for those nutrient. So, you know, that's, that's just one piece of the puzzle that, that I look at when I work with producers.
matt_2_10-21-2022_111323:Well, it is a, complex puzzle for sure. tell us a little more about this Heney soil test and where folks Can get that done and, and you know how that works.
Track 1:So the Haney test is one, it's calibrated on depth, so it's really critically important that you, take those, those cores all of the same depth. But it's, it's looking at biology first. It's looking at CO2, respiration. And so if you were to take your house, you know, and, and your room that you're recording in and you put a CO2 meter in there and you left and, and didn't come back in there for a couple hours, it's gonna be pretty low. But as soon as you came in there and your kids and, and everybody else, that CO2 level's going to increase. So we wanna see how active are the microbes in that soil. That's the first key thing. The standard soil test just looked at how much, how much, fertilizer or nutrients could be made available or are in that soil solution. And this is saying, well, with microbial activity and if we get the rainfall, this is how much can be made available. So it's more of a, a credit system, think of it that way. And so the way I look at. With farmers, it say, you know, if it's, if it's, let's say corn and we know it takes about 0.35 pounds of phosphorous to produce a bushel and 0.25 pounds of potassium and depending on your region, anywhere from 0.85 to, to maybe a 1.1 pounds of nitrogen to produce a bushel of corn. And so I then look at what's my average yield, you know, on a five year or 10 year average, and take that. Multiply that by the pounds that's needed to produce that bushel, subtract that credit, and then that's what I would fertilize for. And the standard soil test looks at, okay, we have this much nutrients in our soil profile, and if we hit this threshold, if we apply more fertilizer, we're not likely to see a response from that but if we're below that threshold and we apply fertilizer, we're likely to see a response. But that likelihood is all due to if it rains or not. I mean, it's just farming. Like I said, we're at a, you're a, dry period right now this year, and you didn't get the growth on the cover crops or anything because it didn't rain. You know, If it doesn't rain, we can't expect those nutrients to be available to that crop. the HENEY test gets a lot of criticism because It's not quote unquote calibrated like the standard soils test is, but,,you know, the standard soil test was calibrated back in the forties when his in fifties. And, and we're not farming like we were then. And we're not producing the yields like we are now. And so it's calibrated to what exactly? So soil tests go through a calibration and a correlation, and so it gets calibrated in the lab and it's correlated to what the plant performance does in the. And the interesting thing is, you know, a lot of it the soil tests is, are, are using a telemetric, testing procedures. And then they started a few years back looking at this. it's basically a computer model that it can tell us, oh, we've actually got more fertilizer in our fields than what we initially thought through the telemetric scale. It cost too much to, to correlate into the field, so they just calibrated the numbers they were getting from this newer model down to what the, this the old method was telling us. And then, okay, this is how much fertilizer we have to apply. So we actually, were, we're doing a moron approach of farming where we're always have to apply more fertilizers. And let's face it, these fertilizer prices are not going down. They're actually going up and, and you look at globally, You know what's happening with, call it climate Smart Green initiative or whatever, but everybody's looking to, you know, reduce the amount of phosphorus, reduce the amount of nitrogen, and I can't remember if it was in France or where it was, but, one of the major nitrogen producing plants, for the world. Like just completely shut down and they're not gonna open back up. They're not just cutting production, they completely shut down. So, there's rumors around here that nitrogen and hydra's next spring will be over$2,000 a ton.
matt_2_10-21-2022_111323:Wow.
Track 1:That's, that's pretty hard to justify. So we gotta think about how can we. How can we test differently? How can we look at our soils differently? And you know, our standard nitrogen test is just testing for nitrates and pneumonia, which is fine, but it's missing about 50% of the nitrogen that's in our soil. So we could take another credit for another 20, 30, 40 pounds, maybe more of nitrogen. And man, that starts adding up when you start looking at 500 to thousand plus acres of corn or wheat or milo.
matt_2_10-21-2022_111323:And sometimes it takes a, major upset, like the price of inputs, specifically nutrients, to make us look at something differently and make us pursue, whether it be cover crops or soil testing or whatever the management adjustment is this if anything, will make people consider making better use of their limited resources, costs like we have seen the last year and are probably going to see for the next however many years should do it. And, and hopefully We come out on the other side as better stewards of our resources and of the land. but the fact of the matter is Production may decrease long term, yes, it may be more efficient but, uh, it probably, in terms of gross production of bushels, I would guess that we will see even when it goes to raining again, they will see a, a reduction in that pretty significantly.
Track 1:Oh, absolutely. you know, I, it's, it's funny when I drive, north Dakota or wherever, uh, across this country, you, know, it seems like corn and soybeans is, uh, the prominent crop. And you know, it wasn't, I say it wasn't that many years ago, 20 years ago, it seems to go by fast. But 20 years ago there was a lot of wheat still produced in in my area. And I could remember, you know, the local elevator on the Illinois River having grain lines in July that. You know, every bit of half mile to a mile long dumping wheat, and now they don't even take wheat. maybe it's not a third, a third, a third of corn, corn bean, and wheat on every acre. If a farm could implement some small grain into the rotation or, or add some other diversity into the rotation, it takes the pressure off of the corn. It takes the pressure off the soybeans, but at the same time, you're gonna see those prices of those commodities because there'll be a bigger demand actually increase. But you know, as human nature, we see an increase in price and we plant more of it.
matt_2_10-21-2022_111323:we run to it with immense amounts of energy and, and dollars, no doubt.
Track 1:It's definitely a short-term gain.
matt_2_10-21-2022_111323:Yeah. Do you think that the, drought in, in a lot of regions, even though it's just a couple years into it, but, do you think that moves more acres to wheat because of their reduced need for, for moisture?
Track 1:I think so. I mean, I. I was actually kind of shocked here in Illinois. I thought there would be a lot more wheated acres planet just given the price right now. and, surprisingly there's not. But I guess when I look at some of these areas, guys are 300 plus dollar an acre cash rent. It's hard to make wheat pencil on that. But even, you know, in, in, in Kansas, you know, talking to guys out there and looking at, you know, this spring, a milo crop, or sunflower crop or something like that, and versus, you know, wheat acres or, or you know, e even in April and May, it was still so incredibly dry and they carried over in like that Reno County area. They were two years of carrying over. Precipitation annual precipitation than the year prior. So coming into this year, adding up the two previous years, they're at half of their moisture level, and now this year they've had like maybe three, four inches of rain total. So you look at the next year coming into it, unless we get a significant amount of moisture this winter, the only thing that looks promising is, is wheat. Just because the spring rains when you can get it potentially keying yield more than than a failed milo crop. Even. I mean, I talking to some guys out there in, in Reno County that they had crop insurance adjusters out there looking at two bushel ac. That's tough. And Milo's pretty darn,, tough for for, can handle some dry periods, but it can handle that. So we gotta kind of change our mindset and look at when we get rain and what crops can thrive on the moisture we get.
matt_2_10-21-2022_111323:yeah, that's a good point because we always talk about average annual rainfall, and we never see an average year. It's an average of extremes. But then when you dig down deeper and see when those rains came, the last few years, even though in our area up until this year we've been, we've been pretty close to an average range. It just comes at the weirdest times. And so that's a very good point to, to adjust your cropping scenario to that. Now granted, none of our crystal balls are as shiny as we'd like'em to be, and, and, we, we go back to our traditional mindset of when the normal reigns do and don't come in a certain area. But yeah, I think we have to have to look at all pieces of that puzzle, as you mentioned.
Track 1:and and you know, talking about being a steward of the land and cover crop and, and reduced, And all of that. If we look at our, our organic matter in our soils, you know, as is, it's the piggy bank that everybody wants to refer to on how much fertilizer our soils can hold. But it's a piggy bank for moisture. 1% organic matter can hold 27,000 gallons an acre, you know, an inch there. So if we can over time, improve our soil organic matter, we improve If we're in a drought or.
matt_2_10-21-2022_111323:and that's the misnomer that I get from a lot of folks during these drier times and, in areas of, of our nation where it. is, a whole lot less average annual rainfall. and, that is, you know, we gotta leave this ground fallow so it doesn't take up the water. and so we can't plant a cover crop on it because obviously that's just taking up too much water and respirating it out into the atmosphere, et cetera, et cetera. But but what we've learned, and I think what you said, and I've gotta write that down again, 1% of organic matter holds how many gallons of water.
Track 1:roughly 27,000.
matt_2_10-21-2022_111323:27,000 gallons of, water per acre.
Track 1:Yep.
matt_2_10-21-2022_111323:That's the kind of knowledge that we've learned that, would've I think, been unfathomable a decade or two ago. And that's, that's something that I think we can all pull from is just not only do we get, hopefully a, little livestock grazing in our case, or a little reduction in soil erosion, a little improvement or big improvement in soil health and things like that But that root system and that, that home in the soils, as you mentioned before, that allows. More, water holding capacity, more infiltration rates, deeper hopefully use of, of minerals and things like that. That's where I think the cover crop phenomenon really, really pays off. And it may be in, in tough times, like now when it pays off more than usual.
Track 1:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you look at dry fallow, uh, wheat fallow crop, you know, and it sits fallow for a full year. Okay. If we had a plant growing there, yes, it's gonna use moisture, but it's also gonna re, like you said, respirate out some of the moisture as well. Well, And my environment here in the, in the, I states, you know, we talk about humid do in the middle of summer where it's 90 plus percent humidity and it's just, it is, it's hard to breathe, but it's the crops aspiring that, that improves, that, that's where our short rainfall events come from. know, you, you look at Western kansas and Colorado and nebraska, you know, and, and how much of the rainfall comes from inland and how much comes from the. Right, and, and once it hits those rockies, it kind of changes there a little bit too. But you know, if we grow a crop out there as a cover crop in those follow situations and we don't remove it and we keep that ground covered, think about the amount of the evaporation from that. At a hundred degree soil temperature, we're losing 85% of that moisture to evaporation, and plants are only able to utilize 15%, and I've seen those fallow fields hit 150 plus out there.
matt_2_10-21-2022_111323:Wow.
Track 1:So the evaporation rate is through the roof. We're not actually conserving anything. Meanwhile, if I've got something and, and we don't have to go at high rates out there and we've gotta manage what plants that we put in those situations that don't require a lot of moisture, but putting a plant out there to at least shade that ground and then don't, if we done didn't remove it at all, and we left it to cover the soil surface, That's gonna help keep that ground a lot cooler. Just like you and I, we, we enjoy a 70 degree temperature better than a hundred, 120 degrees, you know, So we've gotta think about our soils like ourselves And, you know, that's, that's just, we all talk about, go to the coffee shop and talk about, well, did we get that half inch? Or in Kansas, you know, that hundredth of an inch of rain or, or whatever. good is it if we can't get it in the soil itself and it just runs off or evaporates off really quickly. So we gotta kind of change our mindset, like you said, and how we view our soils there.
matt_2_10-21-2022_111323:Well, I, think that's one of the toughest things as we embark on something new, and it's not just farming, it's all of agriculture. I guess it's human nature in general, But changing that mindset and going from a straight up production focus, pounds of carcass weight or weaning weight, bushels of corn or wheat or beans to a long term efficient use of resources, moderate approach to both taking nutrients or rainfall in. Production out. that's a, that's a tough switch in terms of, of mindset, whether we're making genetic selection decisions on, on crops or on cattle, uh, or any livestock or we're making input decisions. you mentioned the coffee shop and, and I'd love, I love going into one, but It's probably, and I can not just throw The coffee shop under the bus, I'll throw the sale barn cafe, sometimes the producers meeting the, the seed corn steak feed, whatever the case may be. Sometimes those are the most dangerous places I go because then I start questioning myself And questioning what I thought that I was seeing in a long term approach to a, a more. Holistic, approach to, to managing this cow hert or managing this farm ground because all of a sudden I start here in the same old samel. It's all production based. It's all maximum yield, it's all maximum production. Um, and yeah, that may be the most dangerous spot to go is to to that to that coffee shop.
Track 1:Yeah. You know, they give out trophies for, for high yields and you know, you know, people feel good about the highest weaning way to, all of that. But at the end of the day, you know, that doesn't pay the bills. I, I always said we need to replace the yield monitor in a combine with a profit monitor, and we need to look at how much profit are we making or losing on this acre, and if it's losing us money, why are we continuing to do the same thing over and over again?
matt_2_10-21-2022_111323:so if you built a profit monitor on a combine, profit per unit, is it profit per acre? Is that what it needs to be and what would go into it?
Track 1:Yep. So back when I was in college, well, initially I thought I wanted to be a veterinarian,
matt_2_10-21-2022_111323:Uh,
Track 1:long to wear shirt. I, became a agg econ major instead, and I realized, A lot of farmers didn't treat their farms like a business enterprise. It was, it was a farm we harvested and we produced bushels and that's great, and we sold it on a price that we felt comfortable with or good about, but it was obvious that a lot of guys didn't actually know what their break evens were. So when you look at it, it needs to be all encompassing of any time an activity happened in that field. there was a dollar figure associated with that, you know? And, and so I don't look at just, you know, if I, if I own the machinery and, and it's older, it's depreciated out and all it's costing me is fuel, you know, And whatever, and, and my time's not worth anything. Well, that's the case. Go work at Walmart. You know, and I look at custom farming rates because one, if that, if that tractor blows, Am I gonna replace it with the same 20, 30 year old tractor? Am I going try to get something, maybe a little newer? And do. I've got the capital sitting there to be able to do that, and so I wanna use custom farm rates from either Iowa or whatever. So every time, my time, my labor, my machinery expenses, all of that is included in every pass in that field. Put in all of your input expenses as well. Fertilizer, herbicides, any type of pesticide, cover crop, you name it, it all goes in there. Crop scout, consultant, attorneys, it all goes in there. And now I wanna look at, okay, based on my, my average yield and not your yield goals, but your average yields for your aph, for crop insurance or whatever, if it, if it's 150 bushel corn, what's my selling point need to be to cover all of my expenses? And once you can identify that, then instead of looking at profit per acre, we start to look at profit per bushel and we sell bushel. So let's, let's, Every time that market is moving up from our, our break even point we're selling and if the market moves down, we're selling, but we only sell down to as low as that point. and so putting a monitor in that combine I wanted to look at based on these bushels in I breaking even on these bushels based on this acre, Am I breaking even on it? Is there something that needs to be changed here? The guys I've worked with on, on a break even analysis on their cropping have made more significant advances in their, their financial freedom than the guys who are just selling on a whim.
matt_2_10-21-2022_111323:So most of the people listening to this podcast may farm a little bit, but cows or yearlings or fed cattle or their focus, where do you, where do you put that profit monitor in the beef industry and, and what goes into that? You've, you've managed a, a cow herd or two, um, how does that look on the ranching side of things?
Track 1:So on the ranching side, you gotta look at what enterprises you have. You know, if you're a cow calf guy, You've got cows, you got cold cows, you've got calves, right? And you got opportunities there too, where you can keep back some of those calves, put some gains on'em, depending on the cost of gain and value of gain there. And so is it a 30 day ween and sell'em or. Retain the calves if we've got the grass and the forage should put another 45, 60, maybe a whole nother season on them and take gain opportunities on that. Um, we've gotta understand the appreciation and the depreciation on the cow. We, we can all talk about that 15 year old cow out there and she still produces a, calf, but is it our. Best performing calf or is it our poorest performing calf? We've gotta identify those things because that cow has got a dollar figure to her head too. She hits a certain age and her value starts to decline as well. We also have to look at what are our expenses and no matter if we own the pasture or the range, or we we rent it, or if we're feeding hay, those are all opportunity costs. I, if we own it, but we can't cover our expenses with our cow herd, then maybe we could rent it out and make more money and be profitable doing that for a year or two. Or maybe we sell the cows and we just run stalkers. a lot of guys will find a lot more profit sometimes running somebody else's cows on their. And doing custom grazing, then owning the cows, especially when interest rates are six to 8% right now. I don't know how you pencil a cow her out at that, so, that's some of the profit. And I think the, the, the feed cost, the hay cost is the number one cost that a guy doesn't put into a cow herd that they really need to, to figure on. If you own your own hay equipment, you better have the land to justify it. If you only got 50 acres of, of hay ground or, or a hundred acres, you, probably better hi, hire somebody to bail it, to be honest, it just does not pay to own your own hay equipment. So that's going on a little bit of a tangent, but I mean that's, that's where I look at is saying, what enterprises do I have here? What, where's my opportunity cost lie. Where can I sell? Where can I retain, where my gains gonna be made at? And they've gotta understand the, the cost of gain and value of gain.
matt_2_10-21-2022_111323:Well, those are all, all things that we've gotta consider and don't, don't ever apologize for a tangent on this podcast, cuz if it weren't for that I'm not sure we'd have anything to talk about. and honestly, it's different for everybody. everybody's scenario is different, but those are all things as we talk about, Changing our mindset, shifting paradigms, whatever you wanna call it. whether we, whether we act on it wholeheartedly or we just adjust some things, those are the deals that keep people in business over the long time. Those, regardless of where that profit monitor needs to be placed, those are the thought exercises that I think keep folks that are trying to better their businesses and trying to better their operations and their families, keeps'em in business. and that's what we try to do here. And that's why you're on here. I do, uh, I'm gonna go way back. You mentioned, as you were talking about cover crops and, I think the Haney soil test talking about me or any of my family members in a room and measuring the carbon dioxide levels. that knows me that's listening to this podcast is probably still picking themselves up off the floor laughing at that comment because they know how much a per talks and the carbon dioxide levels that might be in said room after we've been in there for an hour or two. so I hope, I hope they still heard because you had a lot of wisdom following that statement, but they were probably laughing too hard to hear any of it
Track 1:Yeah, it happens. That's,
matt_2_10-21-2022_111323:that that's the reason that I'm hosting a podcast. I guess one, one or two of my listeners will say, it's just so I can hear myself talk every week that I have to edit.
Track 1:Yeah. That's probably one of the reasons I don't have a podcast is I hate listening to myself talk, but.
matt_2_10-21-2022_111323:I guarantee the first month or two of this almost ended the podcast because it was Dogg on, difficult for me to go through and edit it and, and, not just cut everything out that I, that I said. but. I guess like anything, we learned to tolerate stuff that we initially didn't want to.
Track 1:Absolutely. Yep.
matt_2_10-21-2022_111323:you went on a little bit of a tangent, but I'm gonna give you an opportunity to go on one more. we talked a little bit, about GMOs, Dicamba and two four D and even Roundup Ready bean seeds is the one that you used in as an example. where do we go from here in terms of, and I won't throw all genetically modified crops in the same bucket, but specifically the herbicide tolerant crops. do we continue to see new And different herbicides? Do we continue to see increased use or large majority use of GMO crops, or do we find other ways that we can, reduce our reliance on those herbicides and maybe use things like cover crops and rotations to limit that weed pressure without planting the higher dollar seed?
Track 1:So the seed companies make a lot of money on, on their traits and the royalties on those genetics, the, the GMOs on, on those those crops. And, you know, when you look at. You know, whether it's extend and list, liberty, the H P P D, trade on the soybeans, the new RNA I traits on corn for corn root worm, those are all really expensive. when you look at. The cost per, per unit a bag. And that's, that's where they're making their money. And the, the desire need to change is the, the, farmer when they start to have resistant issues is saying, Hey, you need to come out with something new to replace this. We need help here. And these chemicals aren't working. and so they just keep funding dollars into trying to find the next best thing. Biology always trumps chemistry. Take smart stack corn. That was supposed to be the, the next best thing for corn root worm. Well, the corn root worm got so smart that it doesn't allow its eggs to hatch for two years in case it was, you know, beans next year going back to corn and they resistance to the smart stack. So now we've got smart stack resistant. The biology keeps trumping it. It's no different than, you know, two four D beans or dicamba beans or liberty beans, you know? Now we have resistance and pigweed to this. and I remember being in a sales meeting with an Arkansas weed professor probably six, seven years ago, and at that time it was right before Extend came out and he. Within four years, we will have resistant pigweed to dicamba. And it was within four years we had resistant dicamba. But he said, you know, the group fifteens, uh, the Ct Alo malo, uh, common would be like the dual outlook, harness. We should not have resistance to that mode of action. And yet here we are, two years ago, it was identified that we had resistant pigweed in Illinois to the Group 15. So as we always sit here in the last, you know, shoot 20 plus years, looking at where's, where's the next silver bullet? And the misuse of those silver bullets has caused us to have these resistant weeds and insects. That's where rotation works.
David:Dr. Dwayne Beck, he's, done a lot of research, looking at weed resistance, insect resistance, and disease resistance by having diverse crop, systems. And so not just planting corn and soybeans, not just doing corn on corn, on corn on corn, and then a soybean crop, but adding another one or two crops into that rotation where we're spraying different modes of action on plants and, you know, planting at different times as well. Instead of planting and harvesting two crops at the same time and spraying all the same know modes of action on weeds in the same time of the year. We use diversity of crop rotations actually helps to, to suppress out a lot of those weeds and insects and everything. You know, it's, it's that disruption factor that we need in our systems to to help build resilience. So is
Matt:the disruption factor of a year, in other words, a typical crop rotation, 2, 3, 4 crop rotation is that enough or do we have to get all the way to companion crops and, and having two crops growing simultaneously in the field?
David:Two, you know, not necessarily, Yeah, not necessarily. I mean, companion cropping can be difficult depending on your LA attitude in the country that you're at and rainfall and everything, but, but adding, you know, at least one more crop. You know, that's, that's different. You know, that that's where that small grain, especially, you know, in this Midwest environment, putting winter, winter weed in really helps. And I mean, the, the Morrow plots at the University of Illinois, one of the longest, running corn trials, and they've got, you know, a field that's corn on corn or a little block, and then the other one's like a oak corn, soybean, clover rotation. And you just look at the resilience between those two plots. One, the amount of soil loss is about two to three foot difference and erosion. But the other one is those plants are always healthier. They always generate a higher return on investment there, on a per acre basis. and, and you just, you're breaking up these, these pest cycles so much more. So, I think we, we really need to change the way we, we look at what we grow, how we grow. And remember, we're just farmers. We're in a business to grow things. Well,
Matt:since you've completely blown up my, uh, six figure deal that I was putting together with Monsanto to sponsor this podcast, Um, I, I do have to say, and I think anybody that's listened to very many of these episodes knows that I, I am not opposed to technology. And I think there are advances even in chemistry that can help us beef, cattle, crop production, whatever the case may be. But as you have pointed out, and I think several other discussions have as well in different ways, biology always trumps chemistry and. We, we are all looking for that silver bullet. And when the silver bullet stops working two or three or four or 10 years into; now, we're looking for a better silver bullet. And quite often it is to solve the unintended consequences that we created by using the first one. And, and I think that's where we have to step back and, and whether we're talking about profit as opposed to production, whether we're talking, diversity of crops as opposed to chemistry to try to quote unquote weed out those, those, things that are, that are reducing our ability to grow seed crop, these are big picture items and these are things that it takes more than just one salesperson or one silver bullet to remedy. And I think as, as farmers and ranchers, we've always been pretty good at weighing a lot of different factors into our decision process. And, and I think today is probably a more pertinent time than ever to do. Exactly
David:that You're right. And by no means am I sitting there telling everybody you need to go non GMO or organic. But what I'm saying is let's use the tools in our toolbox when we need'em. You know, instead of a broad acre application,
Matt:yeah. It's easy to blame Bayer or Monsanto or, or whoever is Macon said, silver bullet and, and marketing that. Let's be honest. it's easy to blame those folks, but in the end it's us making that decision whether or not to use that product, how many of our acres to use that product on, and then how to use that in each case. And so yeah, we have to look in the mirror quite often and not just point the finger of blame at somebody
David:else. Well, not, not only with the chemistry on row cropping, but even, you know, look at, look at cow calf operations and if you were to only buy off of EPDs and not let that cow actually look like, and her longevity, you know, there's, there's a little bit of both that you gotta take into balance hair, Right. You know, she's gotta be phenotypically Correct as well. And I think a lot of guys sometimes forget about that and they just buy all papers and, if we're only buying, and sourcing off of short term, you know, hey, this, this, this bull performed really good, but then after year four something happened and his mom fell apart, yeah. It's
Matt:a, it's a balance and again, everybody's, everybody's production goals and everybody's resources that they have to use and work with are different. I laugh when somebody says, What's your, what's your best bull in the offering or what's the best set EPDs on the bull that you have? And, the answer is, it depends on who's buying it and what their needs are and, and, uh, yeah, what their emphasis are. But we can't, we can't put every single trait that, um, that is probably a, a necessity in that matrix onto a piece of paper. I think it's good that we're getting more, and I think, frankly, right now we're starting to pick some of that higher fruit. We've gotten all the low hanging. I think characterized and quantified pretty well into an EPD on these cattle, at least in the Angus breed. And now we're reaching up a little higher, and that fruit's tougher to pick. And that fruit is a whole lot harder to, to measure and to calculate and to put in to predictions. But I think we're, we're getting closer as we talk about, as you mentioned, reproductive efficiency and longevity, EPDs and, and some things that, uh, that truly do affect the profitability, not just the production, but the profitability of a cow. And, as, as you know, uh, we've been, we've been preaching out of that book for a long time and, and are looking forward to better characterizing those. But still, when it comes right down to it, regardless of the genetic potential of that bull or of that cow, or of whoever we're talking about, if they can't go and deliver. That calf, if they can't go and breed that pasture of cows, it doesn't matter how good their genetics are, cuz they're not gonna reproduce and they're not going to do it in an effective manner. And so it all has to go in, all has to be weighed in, in the mix for sure.
David:Absolutely. I still remember the first phone conversation I had with you and everything and you know, I, I really enjoy every, every time I get bull catalog along Cel, just going through it and picking out, you know, the top things that I'd look for in a bowl and, you know, but it all depends on what, what am I wanting to produce, you know, in my precinct replacement heifers, am I replacing, you know, feed calves or you know, what am I trying to produce out here? What's my cows like? How am I matching the bull to my cows and to my environment? You know, it's genetics by management, by environment.
Matt:Yeah. It all, it all goes into it and everybody's is different. And that's, that's what makes it fun. That's why we're, that's why we're selling 140 some bulls and not just one. And hopefully everybody, is interested in multiples in that group. So, I guess be ready because your catalog should be in the mail, uh, as we speak, and hopefully we'll be hitting your box and, and others, mailboxes here this week. Great. David, I appreciate your time. I appreciate all of your insight. you mentioned several different states that you travel and you work with clients. you cover a pretty wide swath. Give us the best contact information if people do wanna solicit your services there. I know you're on your own and, and consulting with a lot of different folks. Tell us the best way to get ahold of you.
David:Probably the best way is just to call or text me. Uh, call is always the best. I feel like my phone number is area code(217) 370-3799 and you can always email me at D k l E I n s c gmail.com. And he can also find me on Facebook at Progressive Agronomy Consulting Services as well. My previous role I traveling all over the country and, and now I'm just trying to narrow it in and, and, and consult a little bit closer to home. But I'm always open to communication to whoever. Great,
Matt:great. Well, I, I did see a Facebook post here recently from you that, I, I about dropped my phone when I saw it. Uh, you were in a tractor taking a, selfie video, pulling a disc. And, um, I think it's, it's just proof positive that as many times as you and I have talked about the benefits of no-till and cover crops and minimal, disturbance of that soil, it's proof positive that you are willing to realize that at certain times we have to reach a little deeper into that toolbox and use a tool that we thought we were done with or had absolutely no use. And lo and behold, guess what? The, the situation called for it. So to me, that says a lot, uh, for, for your ability to, to look at the whole picture and not just what, what you think you are wanting to sell.
David:But the biggest thing is we cannot be purists. We can think that we're gonna be a purist and as much as we want to, but usually that ends up failing us hard, You know, we've gotta be able to utilize all the tools in our toolbox when needed.
Matt:Well, good words to live by, regardless of what area we're talking about. So, David, thank you again for your time. We look forward to visiting again soon. And, I will put that contact info for folks that are listening in the, the notes there if they wanna scroll down and, and catch you, catch you for your services in the future. So thanks again, David, Travel safe and, uh, all the best
David:this fall. You bet. Thank you.
Matt:It's time to invest in practical profitable genetics from Dale banks, Angus will sell 145 yearling and coming two year old bulls on Saturday, November 19th. They're the top end of our 2021 calf crops bred for over a century to offer a balance of calving, ease, docility, maternal excellence, carcass, merit, and sound feet and legs. They're ranch raised freeze, branded fertility checked and ready to work either this fall or next spring. Catalogs will be available in late October. Contact us today to get on the list. Videos of all bulls will be available prior to the sale. Come see us November 19th, Northwest of Eureka, Kansas, or bid online@cci.live call or text Matt Perrier at 6 2 0 5 8 3 43 0 5. Or go to Dale Dot com.