Practically Ranching
Join Matt Perrier as he visits weekly with interesting, thoughtful, entertaining individuals within the beef community. Conversations will inspire curiosity and creativity while maintaining the independent spirit and practical nature for which ranchers are known.
Practically Ranching
#33 - Tom Perrier, Stockman of the Year
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Tom Perrier is President and majority owner of Dalebanks Angus. He's been a servant leader in nearly every community and agricultural organization in his home of Eureka, Kansas. Most importantly, he's been a great husband, dad and grandfather to his family.
This week, his family is being honored by the Livestock and Meat Industry Council as their 2023 Stockman of the Year. I sat down with Dad last January to record this podcast and it was posted immediately prior to the award, presented in Manhattan, KS, on March 2, 2023.
www.dalebanks.com
What you
Track 1what you go through. Well, I'm still a novice most days I'm afraid. It's interesting of all the people that I would have on practically ranching, calling themselves a novice, I wouldn't think it was my father, but, uh, welcome. And obviously sometimes there's a few role reversals in family operations.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Yes.
Track 1Perry is our guest today. And as the name would indicate in those who are close to our family and our operation already know, yes, we are closely related, I guess. This is gonna be a fun one. It's gonna be a tough one because of all the people I've interviewed on practically ranching. I can buffalo most of them. The guy that is our guest today already knows everything there is about me and probably then some. So I won't be able to pull the wool over your eyes. But dad, welcome to practically ranching.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Thank you.
Track 1So today we can talk about a wide array of things as we quite often do, but, what I'd like to focus on and, and have you give our listeners and probably me to be honest, a little more in depth knowledge about our family, but specifically the Dale Bank's name and, the legacy there that, that, uh, resides in there. I think a lot of folks in farming and ranching have a lot of generations and I think sometimes we may take those for granted. And I think it's really, really useful as we go forth and look. Long term here in the first month of a new year that, uh, we also take an opportunity to look back and catch up on, on what got us here in the first place. So if you would, the most asked question I think about our family and our ranch's history is who was Dale and where did the name Dale Banks come from? So if you would, give us kind of a, a brief overview of, of where that name came from and how you found out exactly where it came from here, a matter of years ago.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349uh, yeah,
Track 1yeah, there is no man.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349uh, Mr. Banks or Dale Banks But the, the history. Of Dale Banks in the Flint Hills Started, about 1850 when my great-grandfather Robert Loy, immigrated from England to Ohio and then onto Illinois to shepherd sheep. Uh, after the Civil War, he homesteaded Northwest Eureka in our present headquarters area and, called his new farm Dale Banks after the farm that he was raised on in northwest England. and we've kept that name, ever since. we've used it in the, uh, registration of our cattle also in our farming operation.
Track 1And so that was the Loy family. then what came next?
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Well, one of
Track 1one of his
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Amy, married a boy, farm
Track 1tall
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349uh, named Burt
Track 1were married
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349and
Track 1and they were married in 19,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349and I think
Track 1I think,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349they went
Track 1went on honeymoon. Kansas
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349and went to the American Royal. And found these black hornless, uh, Aberdeen Angus cattle,
Track 1Angus cattle,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349stalled under a stairwell in the old American royal and he got
Track 1got
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349them. So in 1904, he
Track 1intrigued
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Heifers and
Track 1s and oil and, and that was the start of it.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Angus,
Track 1Angus,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349uh, in
Track 1uh, in our operation.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349And so, that
Track 1That was
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Burt
Track 1Burt barrier.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349my
Track 1My grandfather,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349and, it was he got
Track 1he got the
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349we've found
Track 1found out that
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349from Eureka
Track 1Mountain
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349view those, black
Track 1black hornless cattle, cause wasn't
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349around here. this was in
Track 1anything,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_1443494,
Track 1five,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349that era, most of
Track 1seven cattle,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349herford
Track 1cattle,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349or longhorn cattle with maybe a few shorthorns, but they, the shorthorns in
Track 1cattle, that all, all had.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349So, uh, they were very unique. and most of the. Angus cattle that were around were East, Eastern, Missouri, Illinois, uh, summit Iowa. But, uh, they were still a minority breed.
Track 1I could even remember in the seventies when I was, first paying attention to the beef industry. I still felt like Angus were kind of a minority breed, but nothing like what they would've been there in the, the early 20th century.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349that brings up a point in my days of actually running, and managing Dale Banks in the, in the seventies, our advertising program and our promotion program was more to sell people on using an Angus bull than it was. On
Track 1From accident
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349cattle,
Track 1cattle.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349uh, because
Track 1Cause we had to convince first
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349do
Track 1to do that
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349like I say, the predominant cattle were, uh, herford cattle, uh, with,
Track 1Uh, a few Shorthorns, not very
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349the Angus
Track 1Angus probably had,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349I don't know,
Track 1I dunno, right, less than 5%.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349market in the United States at that time.
Track 1Yep. There have been a lot of changes for sure. Okay, so we've gotten two generations deep into the history. Lo then barriers. Where did the name par come in and when?
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Well,
Track 1Well,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349my
Track 1my grandfather
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349active in politics and loved Angus cattle,
Track 1ang.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349he served several terms. Kansas legislature and then was appointed to the Board of Administration. Board of Administration is a predecessor organization to the Board of Regents. So they were in charge of the, all the state colleges and universities along with the prisons and the state
Track 1State Hospital,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Well,
Track 1me back up. His
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Amy, died,
Track 1died,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349uh, when my mother Alice was, about
Track 1Al, about seven years old.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349And when it was time
Track 1It time for her to go to college.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349go to high school,
Track 1High school,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349live with an aunt one of his sisters California. And she graduated from a high school, Monrovia,
Track 1California
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349But when it was time for her to go to college, Mr. Barrier, Had her go to Kansas State University, not to KU or Fort Hayes or, Emporia, teacher's College. she went to Kansas
Track 1and state.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349While there, she met a, a young student, farm boy from Opie, which is just almost, their farm was
Track 1Was
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349north of us about, uh, little less than 50 miles, about 40 miles. but she
Track 1she had him and
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349a while
Track 1a while after
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349they
Track 1Graduat got
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349and my father
Track 1married, father was an engineer
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349and, uh, he worked for Ly County as a assistant county engineer. And then
Track 1and
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349construction company
Track 1company,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349uh, built
Track 1built a lot
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349There, you know, it was, this was kind of the, towards the end of the depression era, but there was still a lot of road projects they built, uh, 54
Track 1highway.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349of Wichita or Pratt and, and one 60, he was managing engineer on, on, I know those two projects. they, they got
Track 1We got married in very
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349thirties and so
Track 1Well that's, that's where Perry name entered the
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Now, it took a while
Track 1Wild
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349actually, my father
Track 1for Father to actually,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349take part in the ranch because, uh, something called World War ii interfered a little bit, in 19. In, in the
Track 1summer,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349he was called to active duty. he was an r o TC graduate of K State, and so he was a reserve officer and, uh, he was
Track 1he was called in.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Pearl Harbor. In fact, my brother Chuck was born in November of 19, November
Track 122nd.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_1443491941, just a few weeks before Pearl Harbor. And a couple
Track 1A couple of
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349brother
Track 1days their was
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349he left,
Track 1move. Left
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349to go to Fort Bliss, Texas,
Track 1Texas
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349to be in, in the Army. And then
Track 1after.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349uh, in North Africa and Sicily, it was kind of a story. My, my mother
Track 1my mother was
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349fa
Track 1trying, my grandfather died.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349she was trying to take care of the ranch. she to sold two complete heifer calf crops
Track 1Crops
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349to try to
Track 1to
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349down a little bit where she could manage it because the neighbors were trying to help her. But, uh, and she had one man working for her, but it was, it was pretty tough to keep things going. And, uh, uh, the
Track 1the neighbors,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349petitioned through
Track 1petitioned to the red front.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349father released. Uh, he was in Sicily, about to go in the invasion of of Italy
Track 1Italy,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349his battalion commander, my father
Track 1my father was
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349commander. Uh, he was a lieutenant on and on
Track 1orders,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349major, but the company commander called
Track 1call him in
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349home. And he said, what?
Track 1what?
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349He said, you're going
Track 1Going home
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349sure enough, he was on a boat home and, uh, In a few days
Track 1days.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349he arrived in Christmas Eve of 1943. And, so that's the
Track 1let's start, I guess
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349the Perry family at, at Dale Banks he actually came home.
Track 1so without asking you to, um, assume things that maybe you weren. Privy you're present for. Would Francis and Alice have been back in Eureka, Kansas running Dale Banks's Angus? If not for World War ii,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349My guess
Track 1guess
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349is
Track 1it's probably,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349they would. I, I don't know that for sure. You can never, uh, you
Track 1sure.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349or what things will happen, but, he
Track 1But Shirley wouldn't
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349when he, when he, when it happened.
Track 1happened. Right?
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349grandfather
Track 1grandfather
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349a result of an
Track 1was also an accident.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349in, uh, in, uh, I think it was
Track 1I think it was
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349or, well, I think it might have been even late 42. But, that
Track 1early that had, that played a big
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Cause my mother,
Track 1for mother.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349though she spent time in, California and off to
Track 1Off college
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349home ec, at
Track 1Harper
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349a little while,
Track 1Dan.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349she was, uh, uh, she
Track 1She was actually the one,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349interested in the Angus cattle, uh, at that
Track 1in that time.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349than my father
Track 1Father was,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349My
Track 1father
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349told
Track 1told me an interesting story was about
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349they selecting bull calves to keep for bulls and ones to steer, to feed on, feed out. And, my mother, put
Track 1put one back in.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349pen that my dad had cut out. my dad said, well, that bull's got short ears. We can't sell that bull. And my mother said, I don't
Track 1I don't care.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349can't sell him,
Track 1Tell him
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349He's the best bull in the pen, And,
Track 1gonna,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349and sh from what I
Track 1what I
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349won.
Track 1probably one of many discussions that, Alice won. I hope. Yeah. Anybody that was at a bull sale that we had last November realizes that we have stayed true to Alice's belief as long as they're healthy, the ears are a long way from their, uh, valuable parts and genetics, because I think about a third of'em had frozen ears this year, thanks to the, uh, February of 21 Storm. Tell me a little more about Alice and her time at K State. I think you told me one time how many female students there were at Kansas State University there in the thirties when, when they were there. She would definitely have been a, a rare occurrence, right?
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Uh, a correct, uh, there
Track 1There weren't, I think
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349I think somewhere along the line I heard there was about 1500 STO total students. and, uh, Only a couple hundred. It was six to eight, to one men to to women. and so, I'm
Track 1I'm
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349the ladies had no problem finding a, a date and, uh, if, if a guy
Track 1guy found the girl
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349out
Track 1out with me.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349was, uh, he was feeling pretty good.
Track 1That's good. That's good. Even though even my
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349my oldest brother, Lou, started a case eight in the fall of
Track 1brothers seven,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349it was still five,
Track 1five, about.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349boys to girls in. and there was still,
Track 1Still, I think
tom-_2_01-17-2023_1443494,000 students. the boom occurred about the time
Track 1time
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349I, I started
Track 1I started that the boom baby boom occurred. Yeah. Yep.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349And luckily the number of,
Track 1remember
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349of girls
Track 1pearls.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349too
Track 1Well, I remember you laughing when I was in K state animal science department in the mid nineties, early mid nineties, and you were shaking your head because roughly half, close to half of the students in animal science and on my judging teams, et cetera, were were females. And you just shook your head in disbelief. And yesterday I saw the picture of Ava's K state meats judging team that just won the National Western Denver. And there's a dozen kids on that team, and there's one guy and 11, 11 girls. So, uh, what goes around comes around, right?
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Yeah,
Track 1Yeah, that's, that's
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349uh, it, it just amazes me. I had the only, you might say animal science, class that I. Girls in was genetics and there were, there were a few because it was the only genetics taught in the holy university. And so, some of'em in, in biology or, or biological sciences, would take genetics and, and then and
Track 1Maybe one or two.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349there was, uh, there was not many pre-vet students that were girls either, cuz their chance of getting in
Track 1Yeah.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349pretty slim.
Track 1Yep. And that has definitely gone full circle as well. All right, so we are at generation three, the Loy, the Barriers, and then Francis and Alice Perry, generation Four
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Generation four was, uh, three brothers
Track 1Brothers.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349brother Lou. uh, next Chuck. Lou
Track 1Lou is morning at 39. Chuck and
tom-_2_01-17-2023_14434941, and I, I came
Track 1I came
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349uh, 45,
Track 1by,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_14434945. So, I'm the baby. I'm still
Track 1so Tommy
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349a lot of people around but, moles
Track 1my oldest brother.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349had a chemical engineering degree from Kansas State University. And, you know, had a
Track 1Had a successful engineering
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349in the petroleum industry, managing refineries. uh, we lost Lou, uh, about two years ago now. But, brother Chuck graduated from Kansas State and he actually was the first one to come back to Dale Banks. And, uh, Instituted a started to institute a lot of positive things, I think, for our operation, recognizing that, uh, we had to make some changes and do some things, uh, a little differently. and then, I went to Kansas
Track 1Kansas
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349graduated, in 67. And, my
Track 1My plans kinda got
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349like a little, like
Track 1like my.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349uh, there was a little thing called the Vietnam, uh, war came along. And, uh, had plans to go to graduate school. In fact, I'd been accepted in, in reproductive physiology in University of Maryland. And, but I had to decline because, uh, my
Track 1my
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349board under the draft situation and they would not, allow me to defer any further. In, in an attempt to try to salvage that situation and maybe go on to graduate school in another year. I joined the National Guard was scheduled to go to
Track 1to.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349training school. And then the Vietnam War really got, he interfered with it, because, I was called active duty. And so
Track 1So
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349about
Track 1about a year and a half on
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349before, Carolyn and I came back to the operation, uh, I met Carolyn
Track 1Carolyn.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349at Kansas State University. And, even though her uncles teased her that she was gonna go up there and find a farm boy, she, she told him she wasn't, well she kind of did
Track 1Did
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349maybe a rancher.
Track 1she, she thought you were gonna be a reproductive physiologist, right?
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349yeah. anyway, we had a
Track 1Shotgun.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349we got called up, uh, the active duty, we were scheduled getting married in the, in the summer of, uh, 68. And, those plans got derailed further cause there was no way going beyond just, you know, active duty and, and, and getting
Track 1Get married, brother.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349be really tough. So we had
Track 1We had a
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349we arranged it in a
Track 1shotgun weeks
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349married and, and after spending
Track 1spending about another
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349in the Army,
Track 1year. Now wait a second. I wanna make sure and clarify. You're open-ended joke there. If your shotgun wedding, that was May of 68.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349yeah.
Track 1And your first child came
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349gestation
Track 1no, November of 73. The, the, you, you probably should have gone on to that Reproductive physiology, uh, masters Tom. Uh, cuz yeah, that's, that's one long gestation.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Yeah.
Track 1Yeah.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349gestation period.
Track 1All right. Proceed.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349after spending about
Track 1About a year half military
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349uh, which in some
Track 1some ways.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349was some good
Track 1Good
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349some ways, you know, you know, military. I,
Track 1military. I
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349I wouldn't want it for my own life, for a, for a career, but, We came back
Track 1back
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349at that point in time, I think, I thought I was outta college too long to, to go to grad school. So I didn't even con we didn't even consider applying, uh, again, anywhere and, and try to get back in into it. And I decided I'd, we'd try to
Track 1to improve our
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349it some and, and, so that's in, August of 19,
Track 19th.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349We came
Track 1Came back.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349in time for the county fair and, uh, been going to the
Track 1The county fair ever since. That's good. okay, so I want to back up just a minute or two cuz you mentioned, as you talked about Chuck being the first one back here to Dale Banks and implementing quite a few positive changes. What were some changes that, that he would've seen that you two would've seen there? In the, what, mid and late sixties, right?
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349some
Track 1some of
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349were
Track 1things happening in our area,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349was this Flint Hills of Kansas is a, is a native
Track 1Navy grass.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349area, uh, that, you know,
Track 1You know, it goes back
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349hundreds of thousand,
Track 1of thousand
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349of
Track 1years.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349And, uh, uh, it's
Track 1It's one of the last
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349of the tall grass prairie. And the reason it's left, Two reasons. One, it's, there's a lot of
Track 1lot of rock
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349it's hilly and it doesn't lend itself to the plow.
Track 1plow
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349And two, the top
Track 1top
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349is pretty shallow in a lot of these areas on top of the hills and the side hills, it's very shallow. And so, uh, it, it, a lot of it was left in native grass. Uh, historically the cattle came up from Texas, and were
Track 1level up here.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349originally, and then in the summer, and then, then sent on to the slaughter market. then, then later
Track 1Later they
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349And when I was a little kid, they came, started coming by truck but it was still predominantly
Track 1dominantly as
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349you know, our operation was a cow calf, but we did, we did graze a lot of cattle ourself also, when I was a, when I was a kid, and, and actually fed
Track 1actually.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349'em out and sent'em on to Kansas City or St. Joe. but in the late sixties this area started turning more to Cal Calf. so that was one thing that my brother and I saw as an opportunity to, we needed to expand our cow herd and we thought the Angus Angus cattle would be a, had enough advantages that we could, we could sell more bulls. And so, that's. why we started expanding, but we
Track 1We also
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349uh, we needed to make our Angus
Track 1saw
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349and we need to, uh, document'em more.
Track 1document.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Well, the way you bred, cattle for was you looked at'em and decided which one was the best, you know, and based on a lot of valid criteria, but a lot of it was just, you know, guessing. uh, so, the way, you know, you went out to find the new herd bull. You went and found, tried to find a son or a grandson or the international grand champion of a couple years before, or the Denver champion but we didn't really do a lot of improvements. We didn't do a lot of documentation, so we didn't know
Track 1take
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349was. my brother
Track 1my brother started AI
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349in, uh, in, I think it was 63, but
Track 1that
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349we, we had to
Track 1had
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349one of
Track 1own
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349of, of the bull to be able to use bull ai. So it was basically in herd ai. and you know, we did make some improvement because we got a few more out of what we considered vvr better herd bulls. But, it wasn't drastic. my
Track 1brother.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349us in the Angus Herd Improvement Program, which I think
Track 1I think it
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349late. Uh, fifties, but
Track 1fifties. It was started not
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349data
Track 1the
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349program. It was started as a, as a program to have an evaluator come look at the cattle put a, put a score. I guess it was a score. We never had it done. Uh, but we knew
Track 1knew
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349But, uh, was someone like a regional manager that would come and say, you know, this guy needs to go to town and this guy you can keep and anything. But it was all on visual appraisal it was
Track 1classifier or
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349he showed up. He didn't see the production off the cattle or anything else.
Track 1anything else.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349so, uh, it, and
Track 1Eventually.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349started recording weaning weights and
Track 1That's kinda what.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349I think our first cap calf crop was in 65. That was recorded on a H I R and that
Track 1That was
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349the pedigree information and the winning weight. But we didn't do a lot of improvement, initially. I'll take that back. Initially, we, we saw some pretty good improvement the winning weights and the productivity of our cow herd because we had
Track 1we had some,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349you know, we had
Track 1had
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349were big, nice, good looking cows that have good calf. And, were able to call some of those cows and replace'em with heifers, and do a little better. A lot of
Track 1a lot of that.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349probably could have looked at a lot of those and, and noted it. and some of that of course was done, but, it did
Track 1It did help
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349And then the other source of genetic improvement besides calling is the, is a herd bull. And that's the predominant
Track 1phenomenon
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349to improve your herd is see the, the bulls you use. Well, the only source of outside
Track 1outside.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349was to go buy one. You bought one and used it on, you know, 30 cows or 25 cows in a season and, and you got that many calves. and the other thing was to use, know, our best calves out of our calf crop. And we did that and we did see some but it got to a point, I don't think we were doing much. You know, we, we, we kind of got to a plateau
Track 1So were those initial weaning weights in 65, 67, were those actual weaning weights or did you have AHR adjusting those to a 205 day or two? I guess it started out longer than that when did they start adjusting those to an age constant basis?
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Yeah,
Track 1Yeah. They, they had an adjustment. Okay.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349to 205
Track 1Five days
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349and, uh, there was, I think there was some attempt along
Track 1long.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349to put an age of dam correction in there too. So, uh, and I can't
Track 1Can't tell
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349that was or anything, but it, uh, there, there was, there was
Track 1you whether
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349deals, but it was pretty well for in unheard use, in the late sixties. And we started taking yearling weights and, but it was still
Track 1I still.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349in herd improvement, uh, with, very little, drastic, I guess, uh, improvements and, and it, and it was, it was the best we had. But, know, when I think back now, we, you know, our first sale catalog in 1972, all we, all we've published is I think winning weights and, or
Track 1or winnings,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349and yearling ratio.
Track 1and the bulk of the folks that were selling bulls at the time would've thought that was crazy. Right. To put that information in there in addition to just Siren Dam, maybe cow family name.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Yeah, I
Track 1I think right.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349they, the pedigree information with date of birth is about, oh, and maybe a foot no with, what
Track 1What?
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349a full brother soul for or what, uh, how much they paid for the si or, or what
Track 1What grand.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349se was champion at some show. Or maybe even a, a great grand cy.
Track 1I chuckle here and nobody can see me smiling on the podcast. But, um, with all the information and genetic predictions, dna, multi trade indices, and all the data that we have today, we're still writing those same footnotes about how they're related to the National Western Stock Show champion, or how much a sister sold for an x y, Z sale. But I digress. So, the first sale in 1972, you were published in weaning and yearling ratios and collecting, weaning and yearling weights, not birth weights yet. When would you start weighing calves approximately?
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349I
Track 1I thought about this day.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349up when we, weighed the first calves, at birth. And I'm
Track 1I'm guessing.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_14434974. But I
Track 1I, I dunno. Uh, because
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349I think we might have been like the weaning weights. Uh, we'd actually taken weaning weights a couple of years we, started submitting them on a
Track 1on a,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349in fact,
Track 1in fact, my dad bought
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349the scale, the single animal scale in, in, uh, probably 55,
Track 1Wow. Something like that.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349I don't know
Track 1dunno. Exactly.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349but I
Track 1I calculated,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349many, thousands of head we'd run across that thing,
Track 1was that the guillotine head catch that we had when I was a kid?
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349That was it.
Track 1he bought that in 55
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349I think
Track 1I think. Wow.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349it, it was
Track 1It was unique.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349a, it had a squeeze sheet on
Track 1On top of,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349squeeze sheet with a gelatine head gate, but
Track 1but you know, you can accomplish
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349your vaccinations and everything and weigh at the same time was the same deal. and so it was
Track 1was unique, you know, dad, growing, growing up I heard that head catch called a lot of things and Unique was never one that I remember you or Raymond or Harold or anyone using,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349no, uh,
Track 1but that's amazing though that a shoot that could both weigh and restrain an animal was really a big deal. today that's commonplace, but in, in the fifties, just having a scale underneath it was unique on its own. Right?
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Yeah,
Track 1Yeah.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349know, the, in in the
Track 1the sixties, a
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349county
Track 1few county extension bouncers were buying
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349single animal scales to go out and weigh people's cattle and, uh, winning time.
Track 1time.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349And, uh, they
Track 1They were all just,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349were just
Track 1just a cage
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349a cage
Track 1cage on
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349the animal on.
Track 1there.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349uh, you
Track 1You had to have
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349it, best if you can accomplish more than one thing at the same time, you know? And, uh, so, but I do
Track 1I do back.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349that. We were, we'd been weighing cattle for probably 10 or 15 years, and I heard a couple of breeders said, we're not gonna do that. We're, that's, that's silly. know what good cattle are. We don't need a scale to tell us what they are.
Track 1Yeah, I've heard that a time or two. So you mentioned cow families, or I, maybe I did. Um, let's talk a little bit about that. I mean, the first four females in a bull, Mr. Berry purchased and brought to Dale Banks in 1904. you've done a little research. Do any of our current cow families at Dale Banks trace back to those four, or where do most of ours stem from?
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349We don't think that any of the present cows traced to the 1904 purchases. We're, we're reasonably certain of that. gotta realize that sometimes some of these animals, uh, when they were purchased and and transferred back in that era, you know, a guy
Track 1Guy did it
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349his
Track 1probably in his
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349office. He was a secretary and did it whenever he got around to it.
Track 1And when you say
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349might
Track 1secretary, you mean the breed secretary
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349breed secretary.
Track 1Yes. Yep.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349uh,
Track 1uh,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349uh, I, some
Track 1some of the research
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349uh, showed that, you know, animals that were maybe born in 1908 were registered in 1910 and, and maybe transferred to somebody find a transfer
Track 1transfer
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349two and a half, three years later. But, you know,
Track 1you know,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349probably transferred
Track 1transfer,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349you know, they were probably sold,
Track 1probably sold. I.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349But we don't think anything traces to 1904, but we're certain that we have majority of our cow families traced to 1908 to 1920 purchases. Uh, we've got,
Track 1Got,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349got
Track 1got the
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349princesses,
Track 1princesses, the blackbird, the black caps,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349uh, the
Track 1prostitutes, uh,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349enamel, uh, the Ericas. Now the Ericas are a little later that, that we think that's somewhere, uh, purchases maybe
Track 1maybe.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349the late twenties or thirties. Uh, a cow, and I, I don't remember exactly when, but most of these others or Cal families, go back to that era.
Track 1And a few folks that maybe aren't involved as deeply in the seed stock world as others. make sure that we understand cow families. basically for the most part in pedigree cattle breeding, the daughters of a certain cow will retain that cow's name and then a unique number, to her within that herd. So if Princess 38 0 9 has a calf at two years of age, that calf will be princess. 54 11 or something like that. And, and so that princess name gets passed down, generation after generation Cys quite often the same way. Although if you have a more known, well-known Cy, a lot of times we'll change that name. But, uh, just wanted to throw that in there so folks understood what we were talking about. So, as far as Cal families, how would you see them different today in selection in cattle breeding mating decisions compared to, let's say, when you first started making some of those mating decisions in selection decisions in the, in the late sixties and seventies? Or, or has it changed
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349when we
Track 1we started to get enough
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349on our cal herd, especially the
Track 1data. We,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349we
Track 1we started to recognize some things.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Cal families that
Track 1that seemed like
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349you know, they, they
Track 1they were
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349better or
Track 1before
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349certain areas. and
Track 1and seemed like that carried on.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349uh, from generation to generation. we used to say the prostitutes, that was our growth cattle, We had, uh, the black cow, the, the black birds were cow, the cows that had more milk. Uh, you know, there were certain other ones that were, uh, more complete in all all ways. But, as we started AI into, outside bulls, were able to match and, and also had more data on these cows and, and that we could characterize them and we said, well, this cow needs more milk. We'll find, we'll find a si that'll put a little more milk in the, in a progeny genetically, and, or, or if they, they need a little more growth, we'll find something that'll put a little more growth in them. And so now
Track 1Now
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349I don't think we can say that we have
Track 1have Mexican.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349the cow lines.
Track 1They're
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349all
Track 1all pretty.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349I think. we have, I don't know, 10 or 12 different Cal And, especially years ago, before we'd kind of evened them up, you could tell which cow families were the best ones because of, of, there was more of them. got retained, they had ca, they had calves on schedule and. And the calves were good. so you ended up retaining more of those. don't think today there's quite that, difference, but we do have more blackbird than any other, any other group. And, uh, I'm sure that in the late, uh, sixties and seventies, uh, we propagated the blackbird and called less of them than we did some of the other cow lines. Like I say now, I think they've evened up more.
Track 1Well, and if you remember, um, Derek Jackson that bought a heifer from us through last year's sale, 21. He had gone back in our pedigrees, found out information that I didn't even know, but that was a, that was a heifer, that was a Blackbird cow, family heifer that he purchased. And he went back through and I put it in our catalog, but she had like four generations in a row that had calved to the first AI on the exact same day. And he went back six or eight or 10 generations. And, and whatever we've done, good or bad, it seems like those Blackbird cows have, have, uh, shown that there is some inherent reproductive efficiency fertility. You know, consistency there that, as hard as I may have tried to screw it up by mating them to the wrong bull through the, the years they've still got it. So I, I think I was a guy 10 years ago that just kinda almost scoffed at Cal families and, and saying there was more value in a certain Cal family with all the EPDs that we had at the time and, and now have even more, again, kinda like the, uh, phrase we used before. What goes around comes around. I, I think there is still some value in that. I think we see, even though we try to complimentary mate these females to a sire that improves on a weakness they have. And, and consequently we may moderate a strength that they had. Uh, I think there's. especially when we talk about just functional longevity and, and reproductive efficiency and, and soundness and things like that, I think there's probably some value there that, that we don't even realize in these cow fam, some of these cow families
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349We used to name my, my father was doing all the, you know, the registrations, uh, we named him
Track 1name
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349numerical order.
Track 1Order
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349In other words, the first, first blackbird would've been Blackbird Adel Banks. And the second one was Blackbird,
Track 1Blackbird
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349and then the next
Track 1the next.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349It didn't matter what, which cow was out of, they, they just got num miracle. The, uh, when we started re when we registered'em, we down the line and you could see that, back, In the late,
Track 1Late
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349sixties, we had
Track 1we had,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349probably four of the cow lines that were pretty even in numbers. which was kind of interesting. But one of those lines as we got
Track 1we
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349more information, we started calling probably a little heavier, started to drop out, and that we still have
Track 1have some
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349But, uh, it took some other breeding, you know, to improve them a little bit, but they, they, they
Track 1those, they didn't up black
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349and so, and then there's some others that
Track 1southerners that are probably
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349as we, we've gone on. But, uh, but especially back
Track 1back
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349late sixties and early seventies, was, We, we were changing the cattle some, but, uh, it was a little based on a lot what they'd done before.
Track 1Right. So through the years, I guess let's just say since you've been back, if you had to list your top one or two challenges that you've had in terms of owning, managing the ranch, can you, can you narrow it down to one or two? What, what have been the hardest, uh, mountains to climb, I guess?
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349first it starts with the kids. No.
Track 1Well, especially the eldest Let, let's skip that one cuz we're, that could be a whole nother hour podcast. So let's, let's skip the Matthew Challenge
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Oh, challenges, gosh, Probably weather
Track 1probably.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349probably one of the biggest things,
Track 1Sure. You know, I can't control
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349and it seemed
Track 1It seem like it's unique every year, So that, that, that's probably
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349big one.
Track 1big.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349other things are just things we can't, we can't, we can't
Track 1Can't
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349uh, the
Track 1control black swan,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349and things that, uh, occur. but
Track 1but
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349lot
Track 1a lot of those
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349we survive and, and we get, get along and we, we get frustrated with it, but they're things we cannot actually, uh, do
Track 1do anything about.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349ourselves. Uh, so,
Track 1So
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349let's try to
Track 1try to do
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349with the things we can
Track 1so
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349And
Track 1that's probably
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349a lot of my frustrations, especially in the, in seventies, and into the
Track 1the
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349We, we were trying to,
Track 1Try to
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349trying to breed cattle and improvement and trying to, weigh
Track 1weigh cattle and
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349on
Track 1out
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349but it was frustrating. there in the late sixties and early seventies, we weren't making much improvement. we just didn't have the tools available breed these cattle. Uh, the show ring was probably still as good as a, it, it was a still a major tool and it just wasn't good enough, until we started
Track 1Started
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349enough records and pooling it with all the
Track 1all the other
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349and other people started to doing what, what we'd been doing since the mid sixties. we didn't
Track 1We didn't make
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Now, open
Track 1open ai.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349uh, occurred in, I think
Track 1I think
tom-_2_01-17-2023_14434974 or five, and they allowed, uh, members of the American a association to register cabs out of bulls. They, they did not, they were not an owner of, and that allowed us to do
Track 1to
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349That was pretty controversial at the time. Even, even my father thought it was a bad deal. he thought it was gonna be
Track 1dominated by just
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349but I pointed out a couple things
Track 1a couple.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349well, we don't have access to what, uh, we can't go out and buy
Track 1Buy that
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349that time, probably a$10,000 bull or$20,000 bull, uh, there in the sixties, uh, and into the seventies, maybe a 25 or$30,000 bull. so. Let's use some semen outta one and find and be able to match, what the bull offers to what the cow offers and try to, I improve our, our cows. And,
Track 1s.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349it was awful frustrating, through the seventies. now the economic problems and the problems of the cattle business in the mid seventies, probably way overshadowed, my ability to do much about, try to do much about, getting changes to how we selected cattle and, and, and the records we had. But, it, it's, and
Track 1And it's been frustrating all along. I mean, it's
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349I'm sure that we've got traits that we would like
Track 1like document
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349and, uh, have, tools to improve that. Uh, We're
Track 1we're not
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349we, we just keep, keep working
Track 1working on
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349when the
Track 1it.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349were expected, progeny differences were, tools were
Track 1develop
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349It just made a world of difference. but we had
Track 1When they had it on fruit tires,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349a, uh, you know, not a,
Track 1not a, not a big,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349number of them. And then
Track 1and then we then we got
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349And in fact, uh, the early EPDs, uh, uh, the association,
Track 1association essentially eliminated any data on,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349on
Track 1on.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349They essentially only, the data only had, uh, you could only get EPDs on, on, uh, highly used, uh, AI sars. and I was kind of instrumental in getting the board to take another look at that and say, well, you know, there's, there's some bulls that are being used naturally out there that sure they don't have as many progeny, but we need to get them into the system. cuz they'll
Track 1They'll never
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349or never get used enough if, if they don't have any EPDs to start
Track 1get to start with
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349and so they started, they cha kind of changed the, What
Track 1what they
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349and uh,
Track 1were used, how they, how they managed the system. Well, I've heard you and and others say the same thing. You weighed calves for years and years and years and you compared them to other calves within the herd and tried to select for the biggest ones and keep the biggest heifers and et cetera, et cetera, and you made very little, if any progress, and it was once you were able to use EPDs that of. I think everybody knows today, allow you to compare your calves versus the next breeder down the road versus the breeder in Montana or Florida or wherever. and once we were able to do that, that cross heard comparison, uh, genetic selection has been on the accelerator ever since. And so that allowed us to factor out, basically factor out the environmental effects and, and focus on what those genetic, uh, variation were.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349In the, in the late and early seventies, the bull testing stations, started, coming about.
Track 1About,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349And,
Track 1and, uh,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349there
Track 1and there was, it was a good, good idea, I guess
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349uh, what started it
Track 1it.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349need to, we need to compare these bulls and see how they'll do and which one can gain better and everything. and so there was some
Track 1Really,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349thoughts behind that. And, but what happened? It became a horse race. It became almost like the show ring. Uh, who could, who could have the. Manipulated his cattle to get the fastest gaining ones and pushed the devil out of'em no matter what it did to their fertility and to their feet and leg and longevity. we did find some cattle that, that would gain faster that way. but
Track 1but it was
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349some of
Track 1some of the people that were
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349real hard lost
Track 1lost.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349what we were really trying to accomplish. We were trying to improve the, the overall quality of, of cattle and, they viewed it as a, as a kind of a horse
Track 1A horse. So you've been back at Dale Banks since August of 69 for good. so in 50, 60 years of, uh, being in farming and ranching, what's the biggest change that you've seen either in the Angus and pedigree livestock business or. Agricultural production in general, or the people or whatever. What's the biggest change from the sixties?
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349I don't know if I can point out one big thing now. The development of expected progeny difference in performance data, uh, and predictions that has changed. Uh, I think the seed stock business and also the commercial business buying bulls. Now, overall, I'm not sure that's
Track 1That's
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349in, the
Track 1big
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Some people
Track 1Some people.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349know, everything's gotten bigger. and that's true and a lot of people have exited the, the, the industry, that's been happening probably since, right after World War I,
Track 11830s
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349was a massive in the fifties and again, in the eighties. And, uh, you know, sure we're getting better or bigger, excuse me. uh, that is, that
Track 1that.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349con been happening all along. and I'm sure it'll continue to happen. Now, certain things in the, in the cattle side of it that'll, uh, mitigate it a little bit, is that we still have to operate on the land it still takes
Track 1Take some out there,
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349the, you know, you can't manage it from. From the story of the Empire State Building. But, you have to have people out there and that, and that's still the way we're gonna run, cattle. We've gotta see'em. sure it's not the
Track 1something.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349scene, but we gotta observe what our cattle do, uh, in a, in an environment they're in. But I don't know if I can point out one, one big item that's, that's happened that's drastic,
Track 1Drastic, I guess. Well it's, it kind of goes back to when I asked you about the biggest challenge and you said the weather. I hate talking about the weather. We always do it because it drives nearly everything that we do. It drives the markets, it drives our daily tasks. and honestly, like you said, I think we may hate these weather changes, but when we come out on the other side, hopefully we're better because of it and we learn something about maybe an expensive lesson, but we learn something and if we do it right, I think it helps us as cattle breeders to select the ones that can make it through and can do their best on low inputs and can make it through some struggles drought. Cold nights, whatever the case may be. And, and so, uh, when, when we talk about biggest challenge and biggest changes, yeah, they, they probably, they probably do go hand in glove sometimes. Any last thoughts
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349uh, we have made some real improvements in, uh, think Angus cattle and, and cattle in general. we went through an era there in the eighties where, uh, we had tremendous competition from other breeds. Angus had, had gained a pretty good, know, increase in the, in the seventies, but we were struggling to maintain that. But it seemed like as we got. Into the a into the
Track 1The.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349started moving ahead. And I think a lot of that was because of, seeing that we needed to provide a product or a consumer, that was better than what we had been doing in, in the seventies and eighties. something that they, they really wanted and they wanted to eat. and, uh, I think some of the tools we have developed, with EPDs, helped us do that. And, they're being improved all the time uh, I think they'll continue to see advances that way. an example, the epd, we had an EPD for marbling back in the eighties. In my opinion, it was not very good. we the ultrasound. Method of evaluating live animals. That added tremendously the amount of data. And I think we improved the formula and, and we were able to end to select for
Track 1selecting.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349up until then, we had no way to select for marbling. And we just used an Angus bull boom and knew that was better than most of the herford bulls, the limousine bulls out there. But, uh, other than that, we didn't have any way to advance the marbling in Angus cattle. And, we do have that tool. There's some other things, other traits that were, uh, just come on that, that we've got EPDs for and they're gonna improve as time goes on. And, hoping we'll get some other, other, selection EPDs for traits that are, that we need to have in the Angus cattle, such as, you know, longevity. uh, I think that's coming. it's a little more of a struggle, but so was, was marbling, and so was birth weight and, well
Track 1anyway. Nobody had.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Those, those traits are more highly heritable. But, we'll, we'll get there.
Track 1Yep. Hopefully we do fairly soon, but, uh, you're right. It, it is a challenge, but that's one of those challenges we keep going after. Well, I think that brings us around, uh, to our time. I appreciate you being with us today and, thanks for holding the family together and Dale Banks together and, hopefully your next generation and generation after that, will continue to do the good work that you and mom and grandma and Granddad Perrier and all the barriers and Loys before them did as well. So thanks a bunch, dad. Have a great day.
tom-_2_01-17-2023_144349Okay.
Track 1Thank
