Practically Ranching

#34 - Doug Spencer, Keeping Grasslands Grass

March 15, 2023 Matt Perrier Season 2 Episode 34
Practically Ranching
#34 - Doug Spencer, Keeping Grasslands Grass
Show Notes Transcript

Doug Spencer is the State Grazing Specialist for the Natural Resources Conservation Service. He's based in Kansas, and his mission is to help ranchers and land managers maintain grasslands throughout his area and even across the high plains.
While he works in a myriad of areas, his passion is native rangeland preservation. He lists several links to help range managers have the best data and info to help in this effort.

douglas.spencer@usda.gov

Rangeland Analysis Platform (RAP): https://rangelands.app/rap/

 RAP Production Explorer: https://rangelands.app/production-explorer/

Working Lands for Wildlife (WLFW): https://www.wlfw.org/landscapes/great-plains/

 Vulnerability Guide for Woody Plant Encroachment: https://www.wlfw.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/E-1054WoodyEncroachment.pdf

 Yield Gap Info: https://www.wlfw.org/yieldgap/

Flint Hills - 14th most intact grassland: https://conbio.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/csp2.626

 

Matt:

Thanks for joining me for episode 30, four of practically ranching. I met Perrier. So, what do you think of when you hear the term? Tree hugger. I won't tell you my exact description, but I can assure you that this episode's guest is not that. In fact, he's at the other end of the herbacious plant spectrum. Doug Spencer is the state grazing specialist for the natural resources conservation service. He works with ranchers and landowners, wildlife biologists about anyone who wants to keep grasslands. Well, grass. Uh, what I appreciate most about Doug. Is not just that he wants to maintain ranches and range lands through the Flint Hills and all of Kansas and really all the great Plains. But Doug is a thinker so much so that he sent me multiple emails after we recorded this episode, wanting to be sure that he had clarified a few of his statements that he made. And not to geek out too much, but he even sent me a flow chart. With top down words like sensitivity and exposure and risk and adaptive capacity and vulnerability and all of these things with. Arrows and Xs and everything else. Just trying to help me understand his thought process about where ranchers can most effectively, most efficiently battle woody encroachment in our nations grasslands. Now I realized that Woody plant encroachment or trees spreading into grasslands is not the hottest topic at most of your beef industry meetings. But as we discuss issues like beefs, carbon footprint, Uh, feeding an ever increasing world population, acreage loss in production ag. It's going to be an increasingly important issue to consider. And as Doug mentions, native grasslands are one of the most threatened ecosystems in the world. And this is a classic example of beef production being. Possible champion for the sustainability movement. In terms of thriving grasslands that are also economically viable for generations to come. Now we as range land managers, as ranch managers, as cattle managers have to be sure that we're helping solve this problem with our management tactics. And not exacerbating it. I don't usually put a lot of links in the notes portions of these podcasts, but this is one time that there's going to be several and several worth clicking through. Uh, Doug provides us with a bunch of additional tools. If you'd like to drill down a bit on this topic. The range, land analysis program that we mentioned in this is going to be at the top of the list. And it is fascinating. It's a little scary. But really interesting to see just how at a granular level, at a global level, we can view things like biomass, indexes, how much standing forage are left from year to year. Uh, Woody encroachments, bare ground, things like that across, not just our ranch, but across all the nation and all the world. You know, we talk about urban sprawl. Um, we talk about tillage and other forces that threatened ranches and range land. But Doug mentioned after we got done with this podcast, that grasslands are being lost to Woody plant encroachment at nearly the same rate as some of these other factors. It's an issue folks. And it's one that the ranching community has to address proactively. So as always, thank you for joining me for practically ranching, and I hope you enjoy this week's conversation with Doug Spencer.

Track 1:

Doug, I appreciate.

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

appreciate you jumping on here with us today. I'm gonna let you introduce yourself and kind of tell us what you do, uh, for your day job and give us a little history and then we'll, we'll, talk about trees and grass and all kinds of good stuff like that.

Track 1:

You bet. Yeah. So Doug Spencer, I serve as the State grazing specialist, is my title with the Natural Resources Conservation Service. Um, my office is outta Salina, but I live actually down here in Marion and, and I'm actually a Kansas native. Um, so still home, home state, and still here. Um, as far as the day job, I get a. Cool opportunity to, like I said, I try to use that term serve because it's working with people, working with landowners, working with our field office staff. And in my role I get to try to provide some, some guidance, uh, just technical, how do we look at issues in the landscape? How do we think about addressing those at small and large scales? And um, and so a lot of times it's documentation. Um, we've got what's called, uh, technical guides or. Practice standards, things like that, that we actually try to provide that, um, details on how we address some of these issues in the landscape. So I serve as that, as the kinda the state lead with that. As far as thinking about, you know, just so my, my interest really sparked or kind of the history. So I grew up in the northeast part of the state on a small cow calf operation, and so my folks both worked in town, but had the unique opportunity to have a bottle calves, you know, and learn how to take care of something else. Learned a lot about life through managing cattle and the ups and downs of that. Uh, I'm actually still part of that small operation today, so I call it my weekend, my opportunity to weekend warrior it. And so I go up there and try to get as much done in two days and then go back to the day job and, and my list just keeps getting longer. Um, trees is one of those things I've been, I tell people I've been cutting trees since I was old enough to run loppers. I'm still doing it, and that frustrates the heck outta me. So I think with what we'll talk about today or others, I think there's some unique or great opportunities to maybe look at things a little different. But, uh, anyway, I, I really want to credit my folks. They, they allowed me to come back as a. Well, first in high school, you know, owned a couple of heifers. Um, but also during college, that college kid coming home and saying, Hey dad, mom, have you thought about? And, and they were, they were bold enough to let me try a few things. Some work, some didn't, but I, I really have to credit them for just allowing me the opportunity to try something. Um, it's also helped me in working with ranchers to go, Hey, I've, I've done this myself. I've learned something. Um, but, uh, still earning. So that's an exciting part of the job.

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

Well, that's, uh, something that I think is important, the, the continual learning, but, uh, maybe even as important as the fact that you're still getting your hands dirty and, and testing some of these theories and practices and things out. And I think sometimes, it be government employees or, or, um, sales and marketing and pr, you know, association representatives, whatever the case may be, sometimes they have this, um, stigma of, of being somebody that doesn't really know. real farmer in ranching is like, and I think that it's beneficial, um, regardless if you get all all done or whether you're just doing it for a day or two a week on the weekends. Um, I think there's, there's a lot of value for your, for your day job, I would guess. So you said that you're using the loppers to cut these trees. Tell us all the different ways that you have seen or used or heard about get rid. Trees in our prairie.

Track 1:

Yeah, so obviously the, the Loper is the, is, we recognize it soon enough to do something and so it's stopping the ATV four-wheeler or whatever it is to, to take that out when it's just getting started. Unfortunately, a lot of our landscape has much more significant amounts of it. So I've seen from, from the Lopper I've seen, fire is a huge one. Uh, that's. Um, shine to keep wood encroachment at bay at large scales. Um, if it starts getting larger, then what fire can consume, then you're looking at tree saws, shredders, resprouting, species, you've gotta think about using herbicide. And so not only do I have to cut that off, but I have to apply something because it will want to try to come back. So, you know, timing, effectiveness of those. Cool things. I've also heard about in other parts, you're getting in the GY Hills or even up in the Less Canyons of Nebraska, they, what, what they call cutting stuff. So it's a combination of they'll cut large cheater trees, stuff those up under, you know, steep canyons or areas, let those needles dry off and that's kind of the accelerant or the, they're able to light those and get a really extreme fire up those slopes that then kill mature heaters where they can't get the equipment. And so they're even, um, coming up. strategies like that. And I just, uh, you know, give, give the rancher or the farmer the issue. And it's amazing what they can come up with on ways to, to combat those, those issues or, or find, um, unique and economic ways to combat it.

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

Well, labor is always at a premium and fuel and chemicals and everything else to go up. Um, so yeah, we, we have to get pretty creative in our ways to, to combat these. you've worked with a team of folks and of course within U S D A and rcs and, and university system and private landowners, et cetera. Um, are we making headway? Are we losing ground? And if so, why or why not?

Track 1:

So, um, I'll be honest, I was looking back at a couple different, either podcasts or videos and I, I actually saw you on a session that talked about wouldn't it be cool if we had some technology that could look across these landscape and tell us something about plant communities or these other things, and it's pretty darn cool because we actually do Now, if people haven't heard of the rangeland analysis platform, That came online about, I kind of first heard about that in, in 2020, and, uh, we've been collecting satellite imagery since the middle eighties. But it just showed green areas and we couldn't interpret that. At the same time, since about the early two thousands as an agency, we've been doing a lot of infield inventory where we go to specific sites and inventory details on plants and production, and then, then there's a couple of really smart guys got together and we're able to start putting those links together and then start to interpret those images. So even though we've had the images since the eighties, we couldn't interpret. Interpret'em until we had more data. And so that came together in about the 2020 timeframe. And two things it really does well. One is it shows on across landscapes or areas as well as through time is what the cover of vegetation is. So it can break it out in herbaceous, you know, the grasses and Forbes. It can actually look at perennial versus annual of those. And then it also can pick out trees and shr. And so now all of a sudden we can look at large scales at what is going on specifically to some of these functional groups. At the same time, it could also then do some predictions on actual biomass. So what, how much greenness, how much pounds or how many pounds per acre is that with that satellite injury? And so this tool is able to interpret that. And so that's been exciting. Um, so just that tool alone helped it. How that shines into the wood encroachment side of things then is we're able to look back in time. And so what has changed with wood encroachment, unfortunately in a lot of places in the Great Plains as we're losing the battle, is we're, we're seeing the wave of, um, woody plants move from southeast to northwest across those areas. Um, what's unique, I think in Kansas and specifically where you're at, Matt, is the Flint Hills because of a fire culture, uh, made it flin. didn't completely stop it. There's still some encroachment occurring, but it did make it flinch. And so while this, uh, there's, there's some images you can look on on that platform, great plain specifically, but it's like this red wave kind of depicting that wood encroachment. It just goes up to the flint hills, kind of goes around and through a couple of areas and then keeps heading west. Um, but it made it flinch. And what's interesting, if you put fire return interval, they've got some, you know, research on that. You put that over it and that's where the wood encroachment hasn't taken over. And so I think that really shows why fire's integral, but we're still losing some ground, and that's what, um, kind of what we're trying to learn here recently, um, through a vulnerability guide, um, uh, direct Tidwell, Dylan Fo Fogerty is on his staff and they've kind of put that together and what we're trying to do as better understand where those little, where are we vulnerable at. So even though we made it flinch, we still have some things going on. So how do we look a little closer at the landscape and identify, here's where my risk is. and do I have the capacity to, you know, the time, effort, control mechanisms to keep that at bay? Or what we've actually found out is that it's actually, we just have a lot of seed exposure on the landscape. And so wherever that woody plant is, it's putting seed out on the landscape that's increasing our risk. What that means to the rancher is that's more time for them to have to go out and manage that risk. And so, you know, one unique thing, what we found is that vulnerability guide came out. Specific with cedar trees. So one mature cedar tree can have about a million and a half seeds on. those million and a half seeds get dispersed over about 26 acres. So those birds typically disperse that within about 200 yards of that mature tree. Um, for those people that do, you know, cropping things like that. If you take that million and a half seeds on 26 acres, that's a plant population, about 56,000 And then all of a sudden you wonder like, well, wow, how is, how are woody plants getting a, getting a hood, you know, a foothold in this landscape? Um, so those are some of the things that we realize. It. Um, we've actually had the rancher step up letting us kind of look at the landscape a little different through this vulnerability lens, uh, in the Flint Hills. Um, about 3% of the area we've inventoried has those mature trees on it. When you start putting that, um, dispersal area across the landscape, and so that one tree, because of where it's at and then how it can influence around it, 3% of the landscape is influencing about 44% of it. And so that was really an eye-opener for me is that so, so they're scattered out and they're up, these upland draws in these areas, but they're just, they're, they're putting a lot of pressure. And so for as the rancher, her landowner is okay, now I'm managing everywhere. There's a lot of landscape I'm trying to manage that's continually putting pressure on that. And it seems like that's what we heard from more ranchers is I spend a little more time each year, more effort to do that spot spraying or seeing that tree up in the upland. And so some of those are starting to connect. Where do th do those seed sources need to be there? Or do we just kind of, well, we'll get to it, you know, and all of a sudden that one little sapling of recruitment that's not producing seed 10 years later, it is, you know, a lot of these trees in about a six to 10 year period of time. Start producing seed and, and it's amazing. Even on my own own farm at home, I can go by and like Yeah, should have cut that one. Um, I even look back, it was, it's probably been more a decade ago we were cutting some hedge posts and so we cut this big old, I got a bigger saw, you know, cuz there was a big tree we were taking down and cut that thing down. It's about 60 years old. You know, it looked like it should have been about a hundred years, but it had good soils that was going in. I turned to my dad and said, if you were a kid and lop that off, we wouldn't be messing with it. You know, So it gave a hard time

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

you get your

Track 1:

Yeah. Yeah. We got our post though. Yep. So we did get a service, but, but it was amazing to me just that in that short of time, you know, just how they can, they can increase. So, sorry, that might have been long answer to some things, but there's just a lot. We're learning a lot. We're learning.

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

That, yeah, that covered a bunch and it, it, as usual, it inspired even more questions with your host. Um, the first one I want to hit is as a, as a landowner of my own place or driving down the road. The places that I'm drawn to that I need to do something about in my mind are these big, thick groves of trees, a corner, a draw, a. Place that was farmed at one time and it may not be a, a big area, but there's a lot of trees and I spend more time either trying to get fire to that edge or spraying that or taking that out a little bit at a time. And I forget about the single sapling that's out there in the middle of the quarter section of grass. which one is more important to do battle against? The big grove or the a hundred little ones that are scattered throughout the rest of the pasture?

Track 1:

That's a great question and you know, both is what I wanna say. You know, you can't, you can't let

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

if you had to choose one, Doug, if you had don't, don't give me a U S D A answer.

Track 1:

what it did when an economist, you know, it depends, you know,

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

yeah, there you go. It depends. It always.

Track 1:

Yeah, so here's, here's where my brain starts thinking. So through that, through that vulnerability system and that guide, and I think that's what it helps landowner step back cuz even on what land unit should I start on is where the pressure's coming from. So obviously in your situation, you're realizing where the pressure's coming from. You're also realizing where those thicker groves are, are definitely having huger impacts on. You know, forge production, um, those things. And so a lot of our tendency is to jump into that and really hit that first off. But, you know, if it takes you five years or six years and those others become mature, now I've got seed on the landscape. And so I'm honestly thinking, you know, to try to combat those recruits knowing that where that is, but, but you just making sure that those don't, you can't let those go more than about five or six years if you are going to try to tackle. That thicker area. Cuz once that seed set happenss, how long are those seeds viable up in the landscape? And I think that's, so that's more of a prevention up there. And so honestly that's kind of flipped the lens a little bit is that we shouldn't, you know, for sure, just don't let those get to seed maturity. You know, if you were, if you're battling down low and it was taking longer, you better go back up the slope and hit those. So I still think it's kind of get your quick wins. That's another kind of a term we've been using with some of our. Programmatic. Um, we've, we've got what's called the Great Plains Grassland Initiative that we're trying to help step along ranchers and kind of one, recognize that vulnerability and then help'em start a, let's pick out and find that quick win. Cuz we can usually with some, you know, concentrate effort. Get rid of this recruits pretty quick. You know, the other thing with, uh, thinking through that thick area is, you know, if it's gonna take three or five years, well there's still seed dispersal coming out from that, you know, now it's less, which is good, but at least we know where to. I think that's the one thing too, is once we recognize where the source is, at least we know where our higher intensity management needs to occur. And so if you got those small, scattered things up on the slope, well now you're, again, you're kind of back to managing everywhere. So it's kinda find the quick wind, push back to those dense areas.

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

Yep. Yep. It's, uh, all out, all out assalt, really. Wherever we can get it. You had mentioned this, this rangeland. Analysis platform that that kind of came into being in 2020. Where can a person go to look at that and, uh, analyze their own stuff and I guess anybody's, they wanna look from

Track 1:

You actually can. Yeah. So if, if actually, if you just do a search of rangeland analysis platform, it'll, it'll be the first thing that comes up and I can, I can find a website if we need to get ahold of that pretty quick.

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

Now I, I'll bet I can, uh, I'll Google that and, and put that in the notes page for folks to, to click as a link if they want to. And then the, the Vulnera vulnerability study, that you had mentioned, I assume they can probably find that through similar channels.

Track 1:

Yeah, what I'll, what I'll send, and so from an agency standpoint is the team that actually helped fund and, and put the scientists, they have a science team is our working lands for wildlife team. And so it's the western working organiz for wildlife. And so they were, um, there's a science team that helped put a lot of information together from the, from that range of land analysis platform. We also then direct TWI Wells, the one that serves on that science team from sort of the Great Plains region, helped put that guide and so, That would be the link. That link has really just grasslands the, if you're interested in grasslands, they have a really great informational page about grasslands. And honestly, that's why even from a standpoint of wood encroachment, why are we concerned about that? Because we're losing grasslands and all those ecosystem services. And so I think it's a pretty good context, and within that, then you can find a hot link to this vulnerability guide. So be glad to get that.

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

And I probably should have started here, but I'm gonna back things up just a bit. Um, for those who didn't up in the Flint Hills like I did or even close to it as you did, um, they may not understand that, uh, on on Earth Day every April. cut a tree down instead of planting one. Right? Uh, because, you know, in, in native tall grass regions, why is it that trees are bad and grass is good?

Track 1:

Yeah. Um, what's interesting is that, uh, You know, we, we were blessed as a, you know, just the great great Plains biome. We were blessed with a huge expansive grassland here. And, and what's challenging right now is, is that we're probably the most, uh, underappreciated landscape, to be honest, is just from value. You know, it was known as the Great American Desert. We didn't know what, you know, what to do with this big, vast, open area. You know, a settlement happened. Obviously, they found out through plow that it was very, very productive lands. And so for, from a big level standpoint is it's actually a. A rare, um, landscape, you know, from the Flint Hills itself is you talking around about maybe 4% that's left of what historically was here. And so just that alone, you know, if, uh, um, another rancher had put it and other scientists, you know, so you know, if a, if a coral reef is worth saving because the uniqueness and the rarity of it is, are the flint tales. And so what happens with grasslands is those trees do, they will actually change that. So you'll go from a grassland biome to a woodland, and then that also changes those ecosystem services. And so if we care about, uh, wildlife and the greater prairie chicken that needs these expansive areas to live in, then that's part of it. These herba communities are very diverse, and if wood encroachment happens, we lose biodiversity. Well, that affects your pollinators. Um, production, it's the ranching livelihood. As wood encroachment increases, we lose pounds of herbaceous material that we can graze. That's one interesting thing from the biomass coin of this range land analysis platform. In 2019 alone, what they did is they looked back to 1990. up to 2019 and saw, okay, Woody planter winning as they're winning grass is losing or herbaceous materials losing well, how much, how much has occurred? Well, just in that difference in 2019, they kind of, people that, uh, farm kind of think about a yield gap. Here is my potential, here is the reality or what I actually produced. Well, from a landscape standpoint in Kansas, we missed an opportunity of about a million and a half tons of herbaceous. Because of wood, he plants. And so that's, that was an eye-opener, a shock to me. Um, from a livestock production standpoint, you know, if we would've done a proper stocking rate on that material, we could have grazed a, you know, about 105,000 head of cows during a summer period of time. You know, that's significant amounts there. But if you're not even interested in livestock production, how about nesting material for the. How about the Forbes that are part of that system that are produced, you know, and so there's those other services that we're losing as that's happening across the landscape. And so I think that set a, you know, we've an urgency, I guess in my mind when you see that and you see those kind of losses within our lifetimes, you know, that's, that's just a 30 year or so period of time. That those kind of losses have occurred and it's like, okay, let's, you know, we've all been cutting trees, but we're still losing. And why? And like I said, you've asked those great questions and I think that's it. I think we've sort of, um, maybe had a little bit of an affinity for trees or just we, we, uh, um, we, we, they're good everywhere, you know, and, and they are, like you said, you mentioned, it's like once a lot of people are planting those for a certain day, we're trying to get rid of'em. Well, it is, it's, it's because they are putting this landscape at risk of being.

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

So besides this affinity for trees that, uh, maybe American society has adopted, that's not, that's not the driver, why is it that this woody encroachment is moving, as you said, from the southeast us? West and North. What, what, I'm sure there's several factors. What do you think they are in terms of the leading one, two,

Track 1:

So I, I do think just because of this, with this vulnerability guide, it shows obviously a presence of a seed source. So woody plants cannot exist if there's not a seed source of them. And so what you think of real historically is there could have been miles, But to the nearest tree and now drive through this landscape and where's you're, you're looking at feet, you know, a lot of times. So one, it would be just be the sheer seed pressure. You can also think of that as one, one gets a foothold is it's not just a linear increase. There's this exponential, pardon me, wonders that, you know, is that the exponential increase? We're just seeing that we're, we're pressured. Like I said, is 3% of landscapes putting pressure on 44% of it. You know, are we just hitting those kind of thresholds? With that though, like I said, is as we've, um, fragmented the landscape, you know, process that occurred at large scales fire, you know, as that's become a little bit more fragmented, more difficult to, you know, we, we see where fires occurring. Grasslands are persisting. So what we can see is as, as the either intensity or frequency of fire has decreased, we see woody plant expansion increasing. And so fire's definitely a critical ecological driver that when pulled back or reduced in intensity, it, it lets those woody plants get a foothold. So I think that's a big driver is kind of just how we've, um, integrated in the landscape and how if fire becomes more difficult, it seems like woody plants can get a, a foothold much quicker in the l. So I'd say those are the two big things. Seed sources and lack of fire are probably some of the two biggest drivers.

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

so, I mean, I'm just trying to do the math here. If, if these trees are taken 30 to 70 years to become mature, it's been a lot longer than that since the Native Americans Huge expanses of fire from, as you said, the southeast all the way on up. So there's, would think there's got to be more in terms of, know, climate in terms of, because I, I never remember a time, and I'm darn near 50, I never remember a time that anybody. Outside of the Flint Hills the farmers that may burn wheat stubble or things like that. I don't know anyone that did controlled burns or prescribed burns outside of this area. And so that, I suppose maybe it just took that long as you said, to get enough trees to get a critical mass and seed source. Then that just exponentially exploded from the what, early 18 hundreds until now.

Track 1:

Well, and there there's been expansive tree planting programs that have have introduced seed in the landscape. You know, it's from the hedge roast to wind breaks to other things. And as, as we've populated areas, there's, there's been, that's another way that seed, like I said, and like I said, several of these species, it's only six to 10 years to reach seed maturity. And so, you know, if you put a couple of decades of that together and plant more and more certain areas, um, you know that. Yeah. I think there's other drivers that might be at the rate of increase in some of those things, but with what we know now, go ahead.

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

few. Oh no, I was just gonna say, I can hear a few of our listeners saying, yeah, but it was my U S D A NRC S guy that told me to plant the trees in the first place back in the thirties or

Track 1:

I know

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

What goes around comes around, right.

Track 1:

who hasn't been wrong be who hasn't been wrong before

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

I have been as well. I

Track 1:

but.

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

as well. So,

Track 1:

and I think it's, it's just that, it's like how this plays out. Sometimes we can have the best intentions and not know how some things play out, or like that is, is could we have better understood what the management or the risk on the landscape could have been? Because I think there'll still be people that want to. You know, plant trees on the landscape. Can we be smarter and, or, I don't even say smarter, but just can we, can we better understand what that means to a surrounding landscape and then have the capacity to manage it so that we don't lose more range lands? And so I think that's what the, I think that's the educational side of it that we're learning. It's like, okay, now that we know some of these processes and, uh, we should have, and thinking about that. But, um, how do, how do we just think about better ways? Keep our grass sands, honestly, with the rarity that they are. Um, another thing I've always mentioned before too, and a lot of different presentations I'll give is it's really tough to understand cuz it's so locally abundant. But it's regionally rare. And so that's sometimes we're guilty is when you're right in it. Yeah, there's, there's quite an abundance in a small area, but when you start thinking of the scale, you know, and across these great plains, you know, we have such, it's such a rarity when you look at that scale. But fortunately we do have a nice block of a fairly contiguous grass land. Um, honestly, in 2022, um, there's a paper came out. The Flint Hills is the 14th most intact grassland in the. And so that's pretty, that's pretty awesome to see. You know, unfortunately, if you're, uh, I say unfortunately, Nebraska Sandhills number one, you know, so darn it, Nebraska beat us on that you know, but, uh, anyway, but, but we

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

gotta give'em a win once in a while.

Track 1:

Sure, sure. Uh, but it, but it shows

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

Jerry.

Track 1:

but it. But anyway, that's, that's something that just, I think the uniqueness and the, and just what we have, I mean, we have such a gem here. Um, and so doing everything we can to understand the risk that's in the landscape because of that potential state transition that, uh, um, I know from a, just a conservation standpoint because of the, the other things we're seeing from some of the declines in greater prairie chickens or some of these other services in the landscape is why it is so important that we, we try to address this issue. So,

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

Yep. So you have mentioned fire return interval a couple of times, and that's, that's a tough one. Let's, let's talk a little more on that because, that interval, short versus long, uh, is, is relative. Right? I sometimes wonder if maybe some of the reason that we're seeing more trees, at least in the Flint hills where we still do burn, because we have fires on some of. fairly, intensively grazed pastures, I will say that may not have a lot of fuel when they do burn in March, April, whenever. And we don't get a hot enough fire to do anything to the trees. And that maybe a less. Frequent higher intense fire might do more good. But I think what I'm hearing you say is it's, it's the other side of that interval of, of only doing it once every years because the tree's got so big that there's no, no way a fire could break into'em.

Track 1:

Yeah, I mean, so historically a lot of, you know, from the Eastern Kansas standpoint, you're gonna talk anywhere from like one to three years was sort of that historic interval that they best think of on that. Now thinking of where, you know, if you lay over where woody plants are not getting footholds versus where they are is its annual. and I think one of, one of the things we fight more so in our eastern Kansas portions is, is re sprouters. And so it doesn't take them very long to get beyond what fire, you know, fire will, will take the, take'em down and make'em sh restart. But once they really get a seedling started and pass that seedling year is, is they, they're, they can, you know, resist fire. So fire can kind of keep'em from maybe getting to that maturity level. But once they have a foothold, they are there. Then if you have missed fire for a few years, they can rapidly. Maybe get to that maturity, but I think, you know, at least what the, what the map and kind of where we're seeing that fire return interval. It, it is an, honestly the annual burning that's keep it to the most open, um, work out of Conza was looking at it. They say, you know, one to three, you know, it's keeping those open up in there, watershed areas. It was once you got like once in four that they saw significant increases in Dogwood and some of those. Uh, woody species. Um, what's interesting I start thinking about too is that those watersheds are also very close to another seed source. So is that playing into it as well? You know, is it not only fire, inter interval, but also presence to seed sources just over the hill versus miles away? So, um, as we move into west, you know, not sure how your, how, how large your, your, um, viewer areas, things like that. As we moved further west in Kansas, they oftentimes talk about three to five, and as even further West Kansas, it was, there was fire maybe more like seven to 10 years in the far west areas of the state was kind of the fire return interval. Historically. Um, you mentioned intensity. I think where we are losing intensity is probably in our lower lying area. And it's kind of which one came first, was that the, you know, warm season grasses do not like shade. And so once a tree gets up and starts putting shade warm season grasses start disappearing. Well, what does, like shade is cool. Seasons, cool season grasses move in there. Well then that reduces fire intensity because there's a cool season coming on, or maybe the timing we're burning, it's suppressing the fire and then all of a sudden, well then that's how one more seed can get germinated and started and fire doesn't get to it. So it's almost like this, once the ball starts rolling or that starts happening, it sort of puts up a kind of a defense mechanism that doesn't let let fire be as intense in those areas.

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

So we we're talking about woody encroachment as if it's all. One type of tree. Uh, we've, you mentioned dog woods, we mentioned eastern red cedar, obviously, um, you know, we have hedge locus and hackberry and you name it. Can these be indicators of a specific problem? If we see one pasture that has cedars and another pasture that has orange boar, hedge, whatever you want to call that same species of tree or, or locust or whatever, what are those telling. And, and do they require a different type, especially of burns and things like that? If we're trying to get rid of, of one type of woody in invasive species.

Track 1:

Yeah, if, if I have cedar trees in the landscape, that tells me a lot about the fire. You know, if there's, if there's especially young cedars, things like that, um, that, or if that cedar's present within. And amongst those other maybe hardwoods, you know, where a fire couldn't get to it. But typically where a fire's utilized, you won't see it. It is able to, again, it's not a resprout, so those eastern red seeders can be consumed by that fire. Um, usually it's a lot easier if they're less than three foot tall. with your typical fires. Now again, like I mentioned before, either a cutting stuff or, you know, you can get fires more increased in intensity and get taller trees, but it takes a significant fuel load, adds a little more risk in trying to contain it. Um, so that's the only one that really, you know, like I said, we get the, we get the top gone, or that's through fire or cutting it. It's not coming back. Um, when you start moving into the, let's say, locus or heads, honestly, it depends is what, what's the seed source around those areas? And so if I have those locusts, um, in that area, the cattle consume those pods in the fall, they could actually disperse those. Um, I think that's one thing interesting too is we get more producers interested in grazing cover crops and things like that, but maybe the water sources back up in the rangelands is, are they going and grazing in these croplands? But yet then there's these riparian areas or areas where other trees are, are they consuming some of those seeds and maybe being the dispersal agent to move these across or further up in the landscapes? Mentioned the hatch apples. You know, that's, that's another way too is I've seen cal pies with locust trees coming out of'em, as well as oe orange trees coming out of'em. So thinking of those as dispersal agents. Um, so yeah, the re sprouters again, they're, you know, Once they get past really about a year old, then you know, they fire's gonna can, can keep'em down. But they are kind of set in that, in that system. Um, there's also been some work out Oklahoma State that's looking like more, you know, late summer fires can be much more, uh, damaging to wood. He plants. And that does make some sense from a standpoint is if you can get that cambium layer or that that growth point or that tree above 150 degrees, you can kill the. So in some settings, if they're not too large, you can actually completely kill the tree itself. But is that easier to do in spring when it's, you know, 40 degrees and you're trying to get to 150? Or like in summer where I'm already at 90. You know, it doesn't take much more to get that up to that critical heat point to actually kill that, and so they're seeing some work there. I think that's where more work needs to be done is understanding when is that timing as well as that intensity. I think the other thing they're noticing is that the residual fire time on that tree itself to truly get it to hot, you know, a fire that just zooms right past it does. That really doesn't heat up that cambi layer versus some of these summer fires are moving a little bit slower. That heat's persisting right around that area and maybe getting more mortality from that.

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

So along the lines of the, the late summer, even early fall burning management, uh, technique. We've talked about several different woody plants. Uh, one woody plant that's gotten a lot of press over the last couple three decades is CIA za in this area. Uh, now listeners in the southeast will chuckle and scratch their heads as they still hate that and call it four man's alfalfa. But, um, that has become something that a lot of money, a lot of time, a lot of thought has been put into

Track 1:

Thank.

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

out how to combat that as well. Um, I presume that a late season, late summer type of burn that gets those blooms. Keep Cicio Za from seeding, from going to seed, would hopefully do similar things and as you said, get that crown and and tree to the temperature where it needs to be to actually do some damage. If maybe you can kill three birds with one stone or give the, make the birds go nest somewhere else,

Track 1:

Yeah. That's the thing we're learning more about and what's, what's kind of exciting as well is just to find, we, we've got this ecological driver now, let's better understand when and how. And again, you mentioned before labor, you know, is can I utilize a specific. Tool in the toolbox at a specific time. And if the more I can do with it at that same time, man, that makes it more, um, palatable or just, you know, wanting to be able to use. So I, I think that does come in combination with it. So, one unique thing, thinking about. um, seed sources, you know, um, Trisha unfortunately has a very hard seed coat and can last there a long time.

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

Right.

Track 1:

thinking of the cedar tree and some of this information is in that vulnerability guide, but really about two to three years is about the only, it's kinda that seed viability on those seeds. And so that's one of the things we're thinking about as we manage, is if we could get the seed source gone and really manage for two to three years to exhaust. Seed viability, then that's a, that's a longer term wind for us in the landscape. Um, hedge trees, what I've found so far, and I think this is where more science would be great to have, is I think a similar that two to three years or so, I think Honey Locust is our one with it, is it's got a pretty hard seed coat, so probably gonna persist longer in that. Um, but we're trying to use kind of that knowledge to think, okay. Too many times we've gone out there and I've been guilty of the same thing. We tackle that issue and then we go on to the next thing and we're trying to step back and go, Hey, wait a minute. There's, you know, just because the tree's gone doesn't mean that there's not risk there. How do we exhaust the seed supply or is that the time that the fire can be really critical to help exhaust that and so we can actually even consume some seed of those woody plants if we can get the fire after that. So stop the seed source. Consume the seed or get that seed viability gone. Now we're back to low risk range lands. So trying to use some of that knowledge to, to win. And that's the challenge with Theia you mentioned, is that that seed viability lasting so long is, is a really tough one.

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

From the research that you have seen and and maybe been part of, and the literature you've read and talks, you've listened to. in your opinion and just I guess gut. When is, and granted we'll have different summers and different rainfall events and things like that, but in the Flint Hills, to get at what I would call the big four cicio, za cedars locust and Hedge. Um, when is the ideal. Within a few weeks, um, to have a controlled prescribed burn that we'll get at that, if that's, if that's your goal, not necessarily to remove old growth from the year prior and have the best gains on yearlings and things like that, but simply to get a grassland back to a grassland. it Is it August, early September, or do we know yet?

Track 1:

I don't know that we clearly know. What I lean towards is that, that later summer timeframe. you know, and so where that exactly is, you know, so, um, as you mentioned, it depends. So, you know, the, the most critical on the is not letting it seed set. Well, if you go too early, you can still get a little bit of seed. So you can reduce it, but you still have, so if you're in July, there's still enough time for that plant to recover, maybe put on some seed. But if that period of time was my point to get to the hottest level, I could then that might play into where, okay, maybe I, I really boil the trees that time. And then the next go around it's maybe more towards Theia side of it. So, so I think it's just like anything decision we make is there sort of that balancing of what is that biggest objective And I can still win on a few of those others. Maybe it's not to the level I want to with the single. Um, same thing kind of goes with chemical applications sometimes, is what can I utilize to hit several of those at the same time to make the most effectiveness when I, if I, if I need to pull that trigger as well. but August honestly jumped to my mind. Matt was kind of like that. If I had, I think of, I think of a hot month, I think of the chance that, that's a lot of times is when some of our. Material starts drying off a little bit. We have a little bit more dry matter, you know, out on that landscape to where that fire can actually get going and and move across the landscape. So I would lean it later if I was really just thinking specifically on the seed reduction side on Cerisha. You know, that way you're closing that window of time for it to try to put on seed.

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

I know the little bit of fall burning that we have done, uh, has been in August. Um, somewhere in the second to third week of August, depending on years. um, we feel like that's the sweet spot because one of the concerns I have is the regrowth of native being big enough that we don't see. major losses in terms of, you know, Freezing out or losing stands by the next spring or whatever of these native plants. And so generally speaking, that still gives us enough time before first frost that even warm season grass does seem to, to regrow and get, get some biomass up there and some cover going into the winter with keep from erosion and things like that. But anyways, uh, I, I would agree. I think, I think in a lot of respects, July is too early. And in my opinion, some of these September, October burns that I've seen done, um, golly, it's, it's pretty hard on the native species, it seems to me.

Track 1:

Yeah. I think I always appreciate, uh, John Red, Oklahoma State. You know, he says, you stand on any square foot of this prairie, he says It probably burned any day of the year under any kind of condition. And so that's one thing. It's new for us, but it's not new for the prairie

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

say As much as we as humans have tried to screw it up, uh, somehow it's still outsmarts this and lasts. So I guess we're probably

Track 1:

Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I agree. And so I think that's the thing. It just, I, I think we're also, but, but it was that variability, you know, whether that's the variability and intensity and timing and duration of these events is thinking about that with our management. You know, we, we we're pretty guilty of doing the same thing. So if we think that middle of August is a sweet spot, we might over. Over and over and over, you know? And so it's just realizing, okay, or if it needs to happen in that September, well, don't let it be every year. You know, those kind of things or multiple times. Think about how we can fluctuate that, cuz historically that's how it did. It wasn't the same day every year.

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

So what other management tactics? I mean, so we've talked about fire, of course, and that's, in my opinion, the most natural that we've got. Um, it's not without its challenges, but, uh, but. In my mind a, a great tool in the toolbox. We've talked about mechanical removal, whether it be lopers or a chainsaw, or a big tree saw, or a, you know, down in Texas was the first place I ever saw them chaining mesquite trees where they'd take two great big cat dozers and the biggest log chain I'd ever seen between them, and they'd just take off driving, um, gring'em out and, and things like that. We've got herbicide. Um, what other management tactics or ideas or non-traditional ways are there, or have we covered them?

Track 1:

No, I think you hit, you know, the, the one that we haven't hit on yet is that, and just realizing historically as well is there weren't only just, uh, Herba grazers, but there were, there were, uh, browsers in this landscape. And so I think that's the one thing I, I, I think of this too is cuz there's places where we probably don't have enough economics or time or funds that, uh, we, we've got a lot of wood encroachment places and so now it's more of how do we mitigate. you know, further negative impacts. And so we know there's gonna be a seed source that remains, uh, because we either can't financially or just it's too big of something to tackle right away. So how do we manage that recruitment phase then? So if the seed gets out in the landscape and it starts, well, that's the time that our browsers could do us some, some wonders, you know, they can. they can take that little plant and chew them leaves off and, and really suppress that. So that's, that's one honesty I've had a, in, in thinking back to your SIA as well, is there are animals that can consume that. Um, I honestly, probably in the last five to 10 years, I've had more ranchers or individuals ask about that. You know, it's, there's a whole nother challenge, another enterprise, an understanding, but realizing it's okay with these things that are facing our range lands. What are those tools? Efforts. What, what do we need to think about if we want to have these rains lands persist. And I think that is, I think our browsers, so, so there's goats, um, hair, sheep, some of those that maybe have a little more chance to consume some woody plants. There are definitely being considered. Um, and I think it is, I think that's where once you know, okay, this is where my risk is, at what capacity is that fire? Is that a browser? Is that spending time on the utv cut cutting net before we can ever get to see maturity, you know, is um, but it's gonna take some capacity. And I think that's where I even go back to sometimes right or wrong is, so on some of our weekends we were out with lockers and chainsaws as a family, you know, taking care of some of that land. And now sometimes sitting in a ball game on a weekend watching the kids. And some of that gets, you know, we're not out there as much on that land doing some of those things. which is great, there's so many opportunities for us, but sometimes it gets us removed from that land that some of that capacity that we used to have is not out there. Cutting it when it's real small,

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

like everything else, we've, we've gotta balance that into the, into the. equation for sure.

Track 1:

So let's, let's talk.

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

talk a bit more about the browsers, the goats, the hair, sheep, whatever the case may be. what have you seen work the best in your travels and your consulting on, on that standpoint? Let's say that. The person has beef cattle of some kind, cow calf, stalker, operator, grazer, whatever the case may be. Um, do you run those sheep and goats? Sheep or hair, sheep or goats? Um, behind cattle? Do you put'em in the same pasture? With cattle, obviously you've got to make sure that you've got either electric fence or uh, something that'll keep a goat in. Uh, but if you have that, do. Go in there together, or do you graze one and then the next, or what works the best? Both for efficiency and also for actually getting the, the browsers to eat brows.

Track 1:

Yeah, so I'll just be real honest that that's, that's something I need to learn more about. I'll be just real blunt and honest on that one is to, to better understand. And so I think there's people out there doing it that I need to step alongside and learn more from, you know, that do that. I know there are some that, uh, you know, fence an entire property to kind of keep those animals in, but they might cross fence to keep the cattle certain places, but they let those, those browsers go where they need to. Um, because their goal is, is, you know, not to, um, necessary to give that woody plant a chance to rest. You know, there are some that realized, okay, I can run this enterprise and I don't want to eliminate all woody plants. I want to keep them from becoming concerns. But to have that, you know, to have this enterprise enter and stay, then I need that browse to feed them. And so they might do more of a graze and then a rest to allow some of those woody plants to put leaf back on. You know, and so, and persist at, at manageable levels, um, but not completely eliminate. So I think that kind of depends on what's, what's my goal with that browser. If it's truly elimination, then I just want that pressure over and over to reduce that reserve in that woody plant. But it seems like that's, that's where, um, and in listening to this few ranchers, you know, as they put those all together, it seems like they, they stay separate. You know, a lot of times they don't. Um, like I know what the goats and the cattle in one producer I know that uses those. It seem like they kind of stay separate, uh, from each other. one of the challenges I often hear is just to, again, with predation, how, how do we manage predation? And so there's obviously putting dogs with them or something that is. That can keep those predators away. So that's another challenge that I know a lot of people have.

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

From the little bit of experience that we had, um, my son Lyle bought a set of hair, sheep and um, small pasture that we had them in that had been grazed by cattle. they were doing some damage to the trees and, unfortunately the dog that we had was not, I don't think, doing, able to do his job. And we started losing, losing some to predators and, and, um, and just couldn't get on top of it fast enough. And that, that's a big challenge that fencing. You know, it's, they're, they are different than bovine animals in that regard.

Track 1:

Yeah. And, and I think it might, again, that's where probably a nice, you know, if there was a chance to, uh, partner with or someone that really knew, understood that enterprise and those habits, you know, is here's an opportunity to, to work together something. You know, to where you know, can, and maybe, maybe there are those opportunities. I know there's some people that don't wanna step in that enterprise, but if someone wanted to come on my place and wanted to manage that, here you go. And the benefit, like I said, a lot of times, most of the research shows you can put it, you know, at least one or maybe a couple per cal calf pair, you know, a couple of those small ruminants and don't see any difference in. You know, grazing capacity of the, of the livestock, start getting more dense than that, then, then you might need to start adjusting that. Um, so, but, but it seems like a lot of time to, because they have such unique selection of cattle, mostly, you know, grass and those mostly browse than, um, it also probably comes into play as, um, I've, I've even seen some where. Pretty heavy on the, on the small ruminants and, and actually almost maybe an over consumption of some of the Forbes. So I also think there needs to be caution there that, you know, from a, the amount of Forbes and those beneficial thinking about pollinators, are there things, proper stocking is understanding my forage availability and trying to balance that. And so it's gonna be, you know, so I need to understand the amount of brows, the amount of Forbes, the amount of grass, and then really get those animals and what they want to graze balanced.

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

Yeah. That seems to be the answer on, on nearly every management decision we have to make these days. I, I know. So I really appreciate the, the opportunity, uh, that nrcs. offices and, and specialists like yourself and across the state and nation, um, offer us in terms of getting knowledge, like what you've just shared and, and, you know, specific questions that we may have. I've had our specialist, Luke Westerman, uh, on a previous podcast here, and, and I burn his phone up quite often with questions and that technical assistance I think is. If you're not already using the folks within the NRCS world to help answer some of these questions, um, I'd sure reach out to them cuz they're a wealth of knowledge and information and, and a network that'll, if they don't know the answer, they'll put you in contact with somebody. often though, farmers and ranchers, when they go to the quote unquote U S D A office, looking for some kind of. Monetary assistance as well. Are there programs still that, uh, through equip or whomever else that may help somebody get the ball rolling if they say, Hey, I've got this pasture or that pasture that I think I really do some damage on if I jump in, but I can't afford to stomach the whole thing. And if so, what's the best. Stepping off point, who do they need to contact to to find out what options they have in in that kind of assistance as well?

Track 1:

Yeah. Well, first I just want to maybe on the first comment you made there is that what we get is an opportunity to step alongside ranchers and learn with them. You know, sometimes we don't know when we have that specialist. Sometimes it's just a matter of learning alongside. You know, we make the best decision, have a goal, and then just be able to learn together too. So I've appreciated those opportunities with, with ranchers out in the landscape, and we can take some of those and share with other ranchers, not the personal information, but just, you know, this is what happened in the landscape, um, from a standpoint of financial programs we do. but we want that centered on a very good technical plan. So we have a goal and an objective. Do we have a real technical plan put together that helps us know that yeah, if we had this direction, we're gonna achieve those objectives we want. With that outline, then you bet if that's gonna take some, some grazing adjustments that's gonna take fire. If that's gonna take some brush removal, yeah, we've got dollars for those specific practices, but it is driven by that plan that's gonna get us in the right direction. You bet we do. We've got those. But again, it's how we start with that is getting a hold of your local office, presenting those, you know, concerns, those issues. What we're wanting to try to do in the landscape meeting on the land together, looking at those specific issues and then formulating that plan is here's those alternatives you have. We can try to, uh, hedging that direction and then, uh, with that plan then we try to find what best maybe funding mechanism.

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

Yeah, and I, I think that culture and that, um, the way of going about your business is something that maybe differentiates you from a few of the other agencies, uh, within, within government and even specifically U S D A. And, and as a taxpayer, appreciate that a bunch because instead of just a blanket payment for raising something, or not raising something, or whatever the case may be, you, you wanna sit down first and make sure. whatever we're about to spend money on or spend labor and time on or whatever else is actually going to move the needle long term. And I think there's a difference. And I think that, uh, that, that's a structure that we don't always see, frankly, in government programs. And, and one that I, uh, commend whoever, whoever started N rcs way back when. And, um, I, I think it's a pretty good model that. getting way off of topic here, but a pretty good model for a public private partnership, uh, going forth in a lot of different agencies.

Track 1:

Well, Doug, thank you for being on here

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

here. Uh, I

Track 1:

to let you get information you've shared

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

shared, um, some good places that we can go to learn more. And, and I'll put, if it's okay with you, I may put your contact information, at least your email address, um, on the show notes and if somebody's got specific questions about anything we discussed here, uh, I assume that, uh, you're, you're open to answer a few of those

Track 1:

Sure. Be glad to, Matt. Alright,

matt_2_02-24-2023_144944:

All right. Well, Doug, thanks again and you have a,

Track 1:

afternoon. Thank you, Matt.

Matt:

Thanks for joining us for practically ranching brought to you by Dale banks, Angus. We just opened our private treaty bull offering this spring. So if you're in the market for practical, profitable, genetics to fit your needs, we'd love to visit with you. Contact Matt today, 6 2 0 5 8 3. 43 0 5 or email us at Matt Perrier. At Dale banks.com. God bless. We'll see again in two weeks here on practically ranching.