Practically Ranching
Join Matt Perrier as he visits weekly with interesting, thoughtful, entertaining individuals within the beef community. Conversations will inspire curiosity and creativity while maintaining the independent spirit and practical nature for which ranchers are known.
Practically Ranching
#36 - Dan Thomson, Beef Industry Interpreter
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Dr. Dan Thomson is a professor in the College of Animal Science at Iowa State University. He produces Doc Talk on RFD-TV and online. He is also a partner in Production Animal Consultation.
Dr. Dan also works with various segments in the beef industry to help connect the dots and foster what he terms a "One Beef Concept."
www.doctalktv.com
www.pacdvms.com
Hello there and welcome to episode 36 of practically ranching. I'm your host, Matt Perrier. Today we get to talk with Dr. Dan Thomson. Dr. Dan wears a lot of hats. He has a tremendous depth of experience in the beef community. He hosts the RFD TV show, doc talk. He works with Iowa state university. He consults with feed yards and cow calf producers through production, animal consultation. Um, he consults with the big four Packers he consults with McDonald's and Applebee's and so many others in the food end of the beef industry. He basically talks with folks from each and every segment of the beef industry. And as I listened to this conversation while posting this pod, I realized he kind of has an all encompassing job description. Dr. Dan is an interpreter. He's a beef industry interpreter, because if you haven't yet noticed, we don't all speak the same language throughout our supply chain. And we probably don't have much understanding of each other's perspectives. And I think this is why I've always been a Dr. Diane fan, because that's basically what we try to do here on practically ranching as well. Connect the dots between the consumer. Retail and food service. Packer process or feed yard, stock, or commercial cow calf, and even into the genetic and seed stock producers. Now. As you've noticed in past podcasts. Um, I jumped around a lot and so does Dr. Diane. In our thought processes. So we cover a bunch of different topics in today's episode, but hopefully they all have relevance. Uh, we'll talk cattle health and the feed yard, the upcoming FDA rule changes relative to over the counter antibiotics. Uh, we talk about sustaining rural America's main streets and independent veterinary practices. farmers and ranchers, we cover Dr. Dan's recommended herd health protocols at the cow calf level. and And finally we talk is one beef concept. We finished the podcast with some ways to get the most we can when marketing calves. And he uses a term that I had never heard virtual integration, not vertical, but virtual integration. Through things like cooperatives and other marketing arrangements. It's a lot. It always is when hearing from Dr. Dan and maybe me. But I think you'll like this conversation with Dr. Dan Thomson, beef industry interpreter.
Track 1So I think the last time I saw you face to face was at a basketball game a year and two years ago in uh, Hillsborough. Yes. Yeah. We were watching the Riley County Girls play, and I looked across there and saw a familiar face on their bench in
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802yeah,
Track 1Jordy Nelson. And then you told me the full story that I think the whole bench and the scorers table and everybody else was in Nelson as well, right? Is that what you told me?
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802yeah. The mom was keeping the books. Kelsey's the head coach and, and um, it sounds like Jor, they did it. Jordy coached one more year this year, but, uh, I think that's it
Track 1Okay.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802kids are getting old enough that he just wants to watch.
Track 1Yep. Well, played Riley County early in the season this year. And, um, Eureka's girls, uh, beat 'em. But it sounded like this was the year to play Riley County early cuz they, they got better and better and better through the, through the season and end up
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802We watched, uh, I went down to watch 'em in the state tournament and then watched the Eureka girls play at state.
Track 1That wasn't a good game to see us play.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802that was a tough draw, man. They're so good so big. But, uh, Cindy and I were sitting here and the girls made it right. Academy made the state and all those girls that are playing were little girls in the stands when our girls were playing and their parents came and I said, man, I said, we gotta get down there, we gotta support 'em. They supported us. And so we bought a house back in Manhattan now.
Track 1Oh really?
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Yep, yep. And uh, so I'm transitioning back to just full-time veterinary practice.
Track 1Well, good for you. Good for you. Well, you've, you've seen and done a lot through the years and, um, always have always appreciated. We call this podcast Practically Ranching, and I would, um, I would call your teaching and, and work within the industry, practically practicing veterinary med. I mean, that's, there's, there's a lot of practicality that sometimes we miss in day-to-day business and whether it be animal health or vets or ranching or farming, there's, there's something to be said for being practical in those decisions, and, one
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802I love the name of your podcast.
Track 1Oh, good. Well, thanks. It's, it has a lot of meanings, uh, depending on who it is we're talking to or, or what day it is. But, um, yeah, so there's, there's all kinds of topics. I guess. First I want to let you introduce yourself, um, and tell us a little of your history and, and, uh, what you do these days and, and then we can talk a little more topical. So tell us the story from then to now on Dr. Dan Thompson.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Well, thanks. Matt. you know, uh, went through veterinary school and did a PhD in room nutrition, wanting to tie together. Production and health, um, and, and kind of look at things more holistically. And, really what I found out what it did was it gave me a, a an incredible network of people. because I did my PhD down in West Texas at Texas Tech, did my DVM in, in Iowa with, the, in the corn belt. And so, uh, and then I practiced in West Texas and in southwest Kansas before teaching at K State and taught at the veterinary school. So I feel very comfortable with my network of people from the corn belt to, to West Texas in the beef industry. And really, I just kind of, uh, have been, been really blessed to be able. Connect people, connect dots and uh, and work in the beef industry. I taught at K State for 15 years, uh, moved up to Ames and I currently have a, a halftime appointment at Iowa State. Uh, and my other half is I'm the managing partner for Production Animal consultation, which is a feedlot practice that roughly 30% of the fed cattle in the US We provide the veterinary oversight for. um, we have 12 feedlot veterinarians and we have expanded the pack into a pack network, that is cow calf practitioners. And we have 45, uh, veterinarians from Montana, Kansas, uh, Nebraska, South Dakota, North Dakota, Wyoming, Colorado. And those veterinarians cover around 1 million cow cap pairs. And so it's been a lot of fun. Um, basically as we see universities change, Uh, and the ability to service, uh, clients and to service veterinarians who service people in the trenches that have skin in the game. Uh, it has really opened some doors for us to do this in the private sector through education, research, uh, extension. And so that's what we're doing.
Track 1I think that's pretty cool because as we see, whether you look at it from a cost side and revenue side from the university system, their costs are going up just like ours and at least their tax revenue is going down in nearly every place you go and any university. And I think from a, let's say, efficiency and, and competition and, and just the nature of business compared to more of a university or or publics type setting, um, you can, you can optimize some, some competition and some drive and some funding mechanisms that I think maybe get stuff done in a more efficient manner. when. Team, those public-private partnerships. So that's, that's a pretty cool way of doing it on the feed yard side. Um, I look at the way we manage and specifically vaccinate, uh, calves at the cal calf level today compared to 20 years ago, 40 years ago, 80 years ago. I don't think there's anybody in America who would say, we give fewer vaccines and we do a poorer job of getting those cares ready to go on to the next phase. And yet, as we look at the data, as we talk to feed yard managers and consulting veterinarians like yourself that work with hundreds of thousands of feed yard cattle every year, the health isn't any better of these cattle today than it was 40 years ago. Is it in terms of morbidity and, and even mortality? Um, is that a fair statement?
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Yeah, I think that, I think we can, we have, we have seen a continual increase in, death loss over the last 15 to 20 years.
Track 1Yep.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802But guess a couple things, I'll go back to the vaccines and on the cow calf side versus the, the feedlot side and. you know we are just getting to the point now where people when they say the cattle have had all their shots it doesn't mean black leg Right
Track 1Yep. Hopefully.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802you know and and that's what we used to fight is they said well they got black leg so they've had all their shots And so now people have really bought into vaccinating at pre-breeding or that that that branding vaccination And then we see you know pre-weaning and and weaning and and getting that that booster and we were using modified live five-way virals uh in those calves and we'd been clicking along decently One thing that I have just realized is that we've had a lot of these interna products come out Well the interna products one thing I think is really important to understand does not contain B V D antigen And so if if it's not explained and I've even seen veterinarians that are just replacing the injectable five-way with a interna at branding if we do that and those calves don't get a get anything else the first time they'll see A B V D antigen is probably about the same time they're exposed to it in the feed flop And and so having an understanding that if you use an intranasal on those calves at branding you still need to give the injectable B V D vaccine is I think very very important So so while we continue to vaccinate and that you know it just gets back to being strategic and understanding what we're vaccinating for and making sure we get it get it covered on the feed lot side with the health I think we do a better job with what we used to consider the you know managing the health on the front end I think that continues to improve We have some recs out there that can be you know again Kevs not exposed to a B V D antigen They come in there's a PI in the pen next to 'em there's pi in the hospital pen and here we go Right Especially ranch fresh calves if they haven't been exposed to B V D before getting to the to the yard and then the other side of this is I challenged uh feedlot guys to me what we have sat down and changed over the last 20 years and said know what By making this change we're gonna improve cattle health
Track 1Hmm
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802I I can't name one
Track 1Gotta agree on what that is first.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802yeah exactly But I but I get the guys that they come in there and they say Okay We've we've gone to two ration systems or we've you know some of the things that we feed uh whether it's beta agonist or or even rementon you know were approved off of what types of intakes Art Rons work and rementon and feed yards in the seventies was on 1975 Harford's at Eli Lilly's experiment station in in Greenfield Indiana got these cattle eating these huge intakes We know that ENT can be cardiotoxic we've got other things like uh labor issues We can't find people to come work when they do come work and they quit And now we have retraining and training and and inconsistencies in our health program Inconsistencies in feed delivery you know there's just so much that goes into this health In feed yards and why we've seen some creeping of death loss that I think that that's that lends itself to and more and and how hard we push the cow right We
Track 1Yep
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802we want to gain five pounds a day and have a and convert it five
Track 1So, uh, there may be more to it than this or that vaccine program, uh, when, when there's that many things that are affecting the actual outcome, which is the, the health or lack thereof of these cattle. It's, it's not just the treatment or the vaccine protocol before they leave the ranch.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Yeah You know kind of goes back to what's your goal and what's your day Just like what you said we have to define the health I have no doubt that if you know when we go into some of these yards and their focus is death and they change their starter ration They change the length that the cattle are on the starter ration They they quote baby 'em they wind up having different results than yards that say I want blue flames shooting out the back of these steers from day one Um you know there there's just so much that you know if you run that pickup in the red line the whole way
Track 1Yeah.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802what do we expect
Track 1Yep And that's a good point. I mean, everybody's after low cost to gain and high feed conversions and, and, uh, acceptable low feeding conversions depending on how you look at in high average daily gains. And, uh, yeah, there, there is a cost to any of these decisions that we make, especially when you're dealing with antagonisms like health and production.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Yep Yep
Track 1uh, along the lines of treating those cattle lifting and when they do get sick, um, I continue to hear more and more chatter about, uh, the FDA's rule change making essentially all over the counter antibiotics, require prescription, just like. So many of the ones did, you know, even feed directives and things like that. Um, and that's coming what this June, is that right? Uh
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802June 11th
Track 1Yeah. So how does that affect, and, and if you're just Joe producer out here, um, should you be concerned about this or what steps do we need to take to prepare and, and obviously do what's within the law and do it right both by the law, but also by the cattle
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Yep The first thing is is that everybody should have a veterinary client patient relationship Right We did it with the feed directive We've done it with the modern antibiotics Um the the only thing that's gonna happen really that's gonna this isn't gonna be a big deal The thing that's gonna happen is that on June 20 something a weekend you're gonna have a foot rod steer and you're gonna go to Orland's and there's not gonna be any LA 200 or by Myin on the counter And you're gonna go up and I I I wanna put a sign at every orland's and fleeting farm for all the young kids that are working there at the register to let you know this is not their fault Okay Not make the call But uh but we know what when the the the the pinch point's gonna right It's gonna be that hey Um but and the other thing is don't go stockpile LA 200 Right I've heard that too Like I mean if you're banking on LA two you're veterinarian should be on the farm Knows your health they'll write you a prescription The prescription will be able to cover all antibiotics And so if the route truck comes by or you go into the clinic it isn't like the vet's gonna have to come out and treat every animal You can still order your antibiotics have case definitions have treatment protocols and I think it'll it the only thing you're gonna do is you're just moving tetracyclines and penicillins into the class of macrolides and other things that we have to have prescriptions for today
Track 1Yeah. And, and that's I think what has to be driven home. I got the opportunity to talk with a college group yesterday at, uh, in Butler Community College. And that was one of the first questions, what are we gonna do about this, uh, this ban on antibiotics? And, and that was my response. I said, well, actually, my first response was, wait till next Wednesday, cuz you're gonna hear Dr. Dan Thompson give the real answer. And luckily you said what I said. I think the pain and the shift happened with the first round of this when people either couldn't go back, buy a bag of Aria Myin to put in with the feed or. Even before that, couldn't get a bottle of, you name it, Drax new floor, whatever the case may be. Um, and I think that probably, now I don't like the way that it came about. I don't like that this was something that government's heavy hand said, you have to do this. But the truth of the matter is it was probably something that we as an industry should have been doing all along. But the positive outcome of that rule, the first one was that people who may not have had a. relationship with their veterinarian had a reason to do so. And hopefully not just for the vet's sake, but the rancher's sake too, that turned into a better relationship. When they had a problem, they could call somebody and, and like you said, they, they don't have to come out every single time you have a sick animal and per make you a new script. It's not like going to the human health world where, uh, you, that you have to be seen to get this antibiotic. Um, it, it could be even a couple times a year, you know, checking in and seeing things and, and that always ends up with a better relationship, better communication, better way of both of us doing business.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802If we're if the only thing the veterinarians good for is writing the prescription
Track 1Yeah.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802we have a problem in veterinary medicine And so what I my hope is is that this'll help people you know develop parasite control programs He herd health programs synchronizing cows getting cows bred tightening up your calving interval adding value to your her herd through we ha I mean veterinarians are sitting there saying Hey I'd I'd like to help I'd like to be involved but if alls I'm gonna do is be there on Saturday night when it's snow blowing down your neck and and doing a c-section and then writing a script um we're gonna lose food animal practitioners The sustainability of of of those veterinarians in the communities on us being able to do do things more than just just just be a script bunny And and I'll tell you when I hear people who have really good rural mixed animal practices uh some of the veterinarians aren't happy about this either They're like I gotta go to the farm uh I could spend I could do three sps
Track 1Yeah.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802and and make you know six $800,000 And so so that you know I think it's gonna be a learning process and And I hope that it's not just the route truck dragging a veterinarian or retired veterinarian around uh the country That's not good for our
Track 1thought about that. Yeah Yeah Well, I, I know. Um, fortunate to have a former student of you, of yours as our, uh, veterinarian here in Eureka, Dr. Kaylee Fitz Morris. And, um, I called her before this podcast and said, which, which stories can you tell me on, uh, Dr. Dan that'll uh that'll sty him. And she was pretty tight lip. So you all, you clearly trained her well,
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Well I just would I I knew she was from Fredonia originally and uh when she'd walk down the hall I'd just call her the Fredonia flash as as she was in vet school And she's a tremendous veterinarian And then and just goodness you couldn't ask for a better person
Track 1yep. Yeah. We're very fortunate to, to have her. And she continues to expand that practice. And, um, yeah, it's, it's once you have a good vet in your community, you forget how many folks. Don't have that. And, and that's a challenge. I mean, when we, whether we're talking about getting a prescription for antibiotics or actually getting the hands-on work done is the lack of food animal veterinarians out here in rural America. And you don't have to go any further than the campuses. And I assume that you've seen this on at least a couple that you've been involved with, um, at least for a little while now. Maybe there's been a renewed interest or at least some lip service paid to it. But for a little while, um, it was all about those small animal veterinarians and training those, cuz that's where the money was and, and, um, even at some of our land grant schools and things like that. Uh, but hopefully that's changing because they're, they're a, a very necessary part of our.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Yeah It's all about it's it is so important not only for when you look at the the grander scale of the economic uh impact that the beef industry or or our agriculture industry has on our entire uh country's economy
Track 1Right.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802serving agriculture serves and keeps main street's open And and that's what's that's what we have to you know I was raised in a town of 250 people My granddad started our clinic in 1938 and dad joined it in 67 and I just had a daughter graduate vet school She's practicing over uh great Bend Kansas Um you know it's it's it's it's it is an essential part of of places where there's cows
Track 1Yep. For sure. So your daughter is a fourth generation veterinarian.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Yep Yep Yep
Track 1got to be pretty rare, right?
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802I I think so I I don't know I we just uh really thought about it besides just that's what we do And then our oldest daughter Kelly married uh Lucas made her he they lived there in Rose Hill He's a veterinarian
Track 1I'll be darn
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802And so I was like quitted need we Lucas is great don't get me wrong but we need a mechanic We need an accountant need
Track 1We need cash flow
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Yeah We need yeah This thing is is going
Track 1So, uh, any rancher or farmer can relate to multi-generation businesses and not being able to draw that line very definitively between business and family. At the dinner table or anything else as wild as some of dad and my discussions get about things that we think is normal at Christmas dinner, I can't imagine what four or five veterinarians sitting around the dinner table at the holidays might conjure up.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Yeah there's a few uh bad abscess stories or
Track 1Yeah. Yeah. hope nobody's listening to this right before lunch. Yep. I can imagine. I can imagine. So back on the vaccine deal and, and you always, whether I hear you on doc talk or at a lecture or anything else, you always end it with, consult with your local veterinarian. But if you're my local veterinarian and I'm a cow calf producer in the High Plains, wherever, if you can just in generic terms, without, you know, naming products or whatever else, what would you say is generally the ideal, um, vaccination protocol from, let's say from birth to 60 days weaned calves
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Yep
Track 1would you tell somebody to give
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802So the first thing is is when the calf hits the ground. All right So day one day two and the only two things I consider at that time are black leg you know clostridial a person has a farm or ranch where had black leg issues and I'm I'm I you know and that's the reason why I consult your local veterinarian because different regions of the country have different uh types of of black leg exposure
Track 1Sure.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802The other thing is is that would be probably the only time I would consider an intranasal vaccine And the reason why we look at the IBR vaccine at that time um you know some thoughts on is that if I'd give an intranasal the co cholesterol intake or the the immunity from the colossal will not neutralize the vaccine if I give 'em an injectable pretty high likelihood that it would be worthless Okay And the reason why the black leg tends to work is very few cattle uh carry clostridial antibody Um and it's a killed brine right So it it's it's an antitoxin So it's against it's a vaccine against the toxin not necessarily the actual black leg so as as we look at that that's pretty important After that I'm gonna leave those calves alone until 60 90 days of age And that's when we get to the to the branding right Pre-breeding uh branding uh time period And if I haven't given a a clostridial at the time of birth I'll give one at branding Um I will also give those calves a a five-way modified live viral um that will have B B D type one type two ibr R B R S B and p i three And so that's really my my strength and and that's what I would do at that point in time Some people will will add a uh a respiratory brine at that time I don't really um I save that for getting up there to when we're two weeks pre weaning right so two weeks before we wean um I'll bring those calves in and I will recommend a last seven way Uh if we're gonna castrate we make sure we use an eight way um because if we use a band Because of tetanus So we add the tetanus toxoid to that clostridial vaccine whether it's at uh branding or at whenever you whenever you decide to to cut 'em
Track 1Before you go further, I wanna make sure, cuz sometimes we interchange black leg Clostridial and seven way,
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802all the same
Track 1the same shot.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Yep Sorry
Track 1I I, I wanted to be sure that everybody that was listening got that sometimes. Okay, so second round of black leg, clostridial, seven, eight way,
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802And I would give them I would give them the five way modified live viral
Track 1Okay. round of that.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Yep And then I would introduce this is when I introduced the the Manheim Okay and then obviously we would would uh repeat that without the the black sorry the seven way clostridial slash black leg when we wean 'em I'm just gonna revaccinated with the the five way live viral and the Manheim And um that should be they should be good to go from that point on
Track 1And when you, again, we have all these different terms. When you say, Manheim past is quite often, and you got what? Pastoral Malta and
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802So Manheim
Track 1Analytica,
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Yeah Manheim hemolytic for us You used to be Pastor Han et
Track 1right.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802it's renamed and so I use that one uh we I don't really use a lot of mota Uh I don't use a lot of Hilus Um in these but I will use Manheim and somebody will argue with me because a lot of these CLOs radials will come with Hemophilus
Track 1Right.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802in there It is not a hill for me to die on Uh as Dr Upson taught us uh above all do no harm
Track 1you go
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802the past I would not recommend Hilus or Hemophilus the whichever name you want to give it but it's called Hilus Now we used to call it Hemophilus there were tremendous issues with endotoxemia because when these bacteria we grow 'em up in these VAs and we kill 'em well their defense mechanism in in our lungs or in our body is to when they're killed they give off these endotoxins So when we would kill 'em in the vaccine VAs they would give off these endotoxins they wound up in the vaccines So when we would give them to cattle we'd get what we'd call the vaccine sweat
Track 1Yep.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802and really what that is it was endotoxin and it increased their heart rate increased physiological responses we could get 'em in these these vaccines So we wouldn't recommend 'em I I firmly believe that our manufacturers have cleaned all these vaccines up Um you know the the the seven white clot radial black leg vaccine I'll see I'm using 'em all together now so it doesn't get confused Those used to be five ccs intermuscular Now they're two ccs subq The hemophilus used to have endotoxin right Most of 'em um hemophilus is HILs is is now cleaned up from the endotoxin So if I if I had to say it in a nutshell and just go back cuz I I jump around a little bit Matt but would if I have a a a black leg issue I would use the seven way CLOs radial black leg at at day one
Track 1Right
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802uh I might use an interna probably won't um on a lot of cases And then when I get to two to three months of age five way modified live viral uh clostridial seven way Uh and I would throw tetanus in there if we band them And then when we get to and it can either be two weeks before we wean and weaning or at weaning in two weeks or three weeks after weaning Okay Depending on what you what your production str and and what easiest for you Um either way is fine with me Um I will vaccinate those calves I will give them one more uh seven-way clostridial black leg will give them a five-way modified light viral and I will add the the respiratory brine of Manheim hemolytic Okay And then the reback at that time at weaning or two weeks post weaning would be with the five modified live viral and the Manheim
Track 1so that would be three rounds. If you give that modified live to those babies. Brandon age
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Yep
Track 1that too much modified live
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802I don't I don't think so
Track 1a thing?
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802I I don't think so Um you know with our and and it goes back to some of our pre-breeding you know on on heifers We'll give those heifers two rounds of modified live prior to that that first breeding season But I the I'll never put another modified live in a cow after that
Track 1Okay.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802The the i I reserve the right to to do that while they're on the the cow Uh and and you know there's some concern about if I give a modified live or an intranasal to those calves that they're exposing the cows Uh maybe it happens on a fluke but I I'm not worried about that and I don't think that's too many modified lines
Track 1Okay. So on your, let's move to the cows then on your annual cow vaccinations. what and when would be the ideal way to keep those cows immunity?
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Yeah So the so the big thing is is that when we're you know the the difference between the heifers and the the cows and the the bulls and and heifers you know you know we used to do the two rounds of of modified lives prior to breeding if I can do one 45 days you know prior to the breeding season will give those heifers a a five-way modified li viral uh lepton Viro Okay And so so we've kind of backed away from the two doses to let's let's get one dose in 30 45 days prior to then once it's a bread heifer or it's a cow I'm gonna give them a killed five-way product for for the viruses uh plus uh Vibrio and lepto and I'll do that at pre check time
Track 1Okay. perfect. Perfect. And then of course, you know, depending on your area, whatever, um, either insecticides, um, parasiticide, internal, external, the whole nine yards. That, that's for sure. A consult with your local veterinarian. I presum.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Yeah You know the lice issues depending on where you're at uh tick and fly uh protection uh are are really really important Um if you're having scour problems uh talk with your veterinarian Cause that's another optional vaccine um where we have increased disease pressure that that maybe we wanna uh vaccinate those those cows you know 15 to 30 days prior to With you know a scour guard or scour boss or guardian or vac something like that to help with with scours to make sure we get that in the clot room But um uh you know I think that's those are pretty uh pretty much what I would do on on those types of things And then obviously one of the things that we're dealing with too is is making sure we rotate our parasites for internal parasites because if we constantly apply pressure with an ivermectin um and and if you have cattle coming in or coming out of your the best way to have resistant uh parasites is to haul 'em in on four legs and uh and introduce 'em to the herd And so going between that white dewormer and f benzo and and ivermectin and and either switching 'em or doing 'em both at the same time is is a really good practice
Track 1Okay, great. So you, um, a few years ago, gosh, it's probably been close to eight or 10 years ago, but uh, you got to come down to one of our ranch gatherings that we have for customers and neighbors and, and speak, and it was a fun panel discussion. And in that, and I've heard you use it before, you talked about what you call the One Beef concept. Can you explain the origins of that and, and what the One Beef Concept means to you and why it's important to, to all of us in the industry?
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Yeah Well and first of all it that was so much fun I still can see those kids around your pond fishing Uh you did a a cattle handling demonstration that was tremendous and just the way you took care of your clients and and brought in your customers and but your neighbors and your neighbors kids and it yeah I mean you guys are a beacon for for what our industry stands for and if anybody gets a chance they need to stop by and see it Um but uh you know when we talk about the one beef concept I I work with cow calf operations to lots of feed yards I consult all four major packers and then I work with McDonald's Uh I just took a job as the lead uh council for Dine Brands which is Applebee's and ihop uh and go out to their headquarters in in Burbank California And and the thing that I struggled with was I kept thinking that you know we we have so much competition in the beef industry We compete at the commercial cow calf level right On selling our calves We compete at the seed stock level we compete at the feed lot level We compete at the packer level we compete at the retail level and it's the one and it's one protein source that's that's within segment let alone what we think of cross segments And I look at our our true competition to me is poultry and pork and soy all right And they're all integrated And so they own the packing plant They own the the sows they own the the pigs They own the chicks they own the you know And so what I had to start thinking is that when someone had a retail level Make a suggestion of something that we could do better on the farm that I didn't react to Well you know you're just trying to make me do something and when I started thinking about their concept of when they would say if you do this I could sell more beef in my store or my restaurant And you're like huh if you sell more beef in your restaurant that means demand goes up that means prices go up and we can get into all the the sharing throughout the beef you know supply But we hope that it trickles back all the way to the ranch and the last thing I'll say about this on the the one beef concept is that in between the cow calf man and the consumer every business is a margin business So I hear someone say well I don't care about Tylan at the feed yard I don't use it at the ranch Well if we lose Tylan at the at the feed yard and we lose feed efficiency one of two things is gonna happen Either the consumer will have to pay more for the cost of production of beef or the cow calf man is gonna be offered less for their calves So when we think about the one beef concept we need to think about how things that occur in other segments have the impact on because money is neither created in or destroyed It's either gonna move back to the origin of the the the na the resource that we buy the calves or it's gonna be passed on in the sale of that product to the to the consumer And and that's the reason why that when we make changes now we can't do outlandish things And if we make changes we need to be paid for it If it costs us more money to produce But if we can sell more beef making some of these changes why wouldn't we And number two understanding that what happens in one segment have an impact on the profitability in others is a good mentality to have
Track 1And it, it is so ingrained in our psyche, these supply and demand fundamentals and what I would call supply side economics on the beef industry front, that smaller herd numbers smaller, whatever the case may be, throughput equals higher prices if you keep demand constant. And yet our last guest a couple weeks ago was Greg Dowd. And, and Greg said, what industry have you ever seen that wants to be smaller and not expand their industry? And, and, and yet it is so tough in the commodity business, especially a commodity mindset that may date back a few decades. Too far in the past when we're now creating premiums for the good stuff and seeing demand continued improve both domestically and internationally. Uh, it, it's still hard to get us ranchers to understand the fact that you can have higher prices, higher profit, and simultaneously higher quality if you have the right stuff to sell. And, and I, but I, I hear it. I am guilty myself of saying, eh, you know, increased cattle numbers, increased supply is going to equal less profit for the cow calf customer. Uh, but it doesn't have to be like that.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Greg and I have uh been on I think the national tour together I spoke with him in Florida and then I just spoke with him in Nashville Um and uh we were kind of paired up Um uh but uh you know what what he said was you know we'll eat what we produce
Track 1at some price
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Yeah If we produce more we're gonna eat it all the other thing that that I have always said is the greatest distance between two people is the last three feet
Track 1Yeah, that's good.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802and the last three feet of our industry whether we like it or not are those retailers and and they shake hands with our consumer We can go in for a day and cook steaks out in front of the grocery store and and do some things like that but we should be helping arm them because they're the ones that are attacked by the the activists to to make these outlandish changes instead of saying well McDonald's had never bought a steer from me We should be saying what information does McDonald's need to get these activists off their back about beef And uh because they are the front door to our industry
Track 1They're like that teenage kid working at Orland the first time somebody shows up to buy their bottle of LA 200.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802you're exactly right I'd never thought of it that way but you're you are so right
Track 1yeah. That, that kid is not gonna be armed with the information to explain to me, who doesn't understand why I can't buy it. But I know the person that's telling me this is that kid. McDonald's is the same way. Uh, they And we want them to know what it is we do every day and want them to represent us. And we try through check off dollars and through telling our story and all these different things. But the fact of the matter is, if we screw up or if we, because of our management practices are selection or whatever, don't give them a product that represents itself very well. Um, they're not gonna be able to cover our tails. And, and that's what I think that, uh, that speaks to this one beef concept. You know, I'll add one other quote that I think supports this theory. You, you mentioned how the consumer is the one that starts the dollar down through that and everybody takes their margin until what's left over gets to the Cal calf producer, um, John Sticka. C B President years ago coined a phrase that, um, I've used before, but I think it resonates well here. The only source of new money to the beef industry is that consumer. else, we're just trading around. We're either, we're either stealing a profit from the guy or gal up or down the chain from us. We're trying to get more margin because somebody else got less. if that consumer votes with a new dollar and spends more for that product, then we all get to share that dollar, but we've gotta do something to earn it first.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802That there's no doubt about that That's a great quote That's know I think you're gonna see some changes I call it virtual integration Uh not vertical integration in the beef Um just like what we saw with us premium beef I think you're gonna see things like that replicated um where ranches uh and feed lots and that can work with a with a packer to develop cooperative systems to share uh that that value all the way uh into the meat Uh and and uh I think you're gonna I think you're gonna see more cooperatives and things like that start to form where cow calf producers can own part of the co-op feedlots can own part of the co-op and and then they have a an expectation of delivery
Track 1Have you seen that happen? I mean, we, I, I grew up in the age of the alliances. I mean, they're in the mid nineties, early two thousands. Everybody had an alliance, and that's kind of what that was. Now, most of those were owned by an entity, by a feed company, by a tag company, by someone who was selling a good or a service. And they needed participants and so they basically subsidized the alliance to try to sell their product. What you're talking about is more of the old co-op model. Um, have you seen it work and, and if so, how? Um, obviously US Premium beef would sort of be like that, and it was obviously has been highly successful. What about.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Yeah So moving back up here to Iowa um you look at West Liberty Foods on the Turkey side the it is producer owned and operated They own the turkeys they own the packing plant Um they have a board of producers that that runs it Um it works extremely well If you look in the swine side uh you know the cooperatives of people who own the sows They they have models prestige farms uh different things to that nature where they they have sows and and then the the people who finish the animals like the the corn and soybean farmers they have hogs uh on about every corner of every uh half section because they want that deep pit manure um the knife right back into their corn and soybean ground But they get about equal amount of money for taking care of those pigs the the company that owns the hogs And so we see see some of these things happening And and recently I think you're gonna see like the packing plant in in Amarillo that's going in I think you're gonna see a a feeder cooperative type ownership in in that there's been announcement of a legacy beef co-op here in southwest Iowa that Cattleman's heritage will own the packing plant but legacy beef uh co-op will be where producers can own shares and they deliver an animal on that share Um and there'll be a producer led board of that for the operation So I think you're gonna see just like what we've seen in the the poultry industry and the swine industry uh some of that occur in the beef industry it will be more of a cooperative because the land mass and and things that it would take to to make it virtually integrated one company owned and everything think would be next to impossible But if we can do some things you know we've seen cooperatives like beef marketing group uh in Kansas in US premium beef we use that as an example but I think it'll just be taking it to the next level Even with the packing plants that are going into Missouri or or whatever but when we look at small producers okay and and I had to get reacquainted to this when I came back to Iowa
Track 1Sure.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802these people don't even get a bid And you're sitting at the kitchen table somebody that was used to getting three pe three bids on Friday afternoon where they hope somebody stops by this week and they're gonna have to take measures into their own hands and and figure out a way to get bigger cooperatively to stay in stay in business So it's it's a matter of sustainability and survival It's not necessarily you know a cons If we weren't pushed to to the we have to do this to stay in business it probably wouldn't have
Track 1So most of those examples you're talking about, and especially those just for clarity's sake in Iowa, that when you're talking about producers, you're talking about feed yards and, and maybe I mean small family farm feeders that may or may not own the cows as well. we're all independent cattlemen, but there's a certain subset of the beef industry that. The most independent, and that would be s cal calf producers and
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802there's no doubt
Track 1I, I, I can say that because I are one. Um and those, those are the ones that, it's the toughest in my opinion, to get, to cooperate, to coordinate, to collaborate. Because, you know, even if I see the data that says I can get this many cents a pound higher by selling load, lots of calves wherever I send them. Um, and that means either expanding by buying a couple more sections of grass, which isn't happening on most family farms and ranches today. Um, or going down the road to my neighbor and saying, Hey, let's, let's get our cows cabin at the same time. Let's buy some of the same bulls, at least similar genetics or breeds. Let's use the same vaccines and ween about the same time. that conversation is done before it even starts because I know my way is way better, way better than his way. Um, so that, that one, I, I think it's gonna have to happen. But that's sometimes where the, the choke point is.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802I think you gotta remain and understand the sovereignty of the individual operation And there's a a lot of different ways to raise beef cattle feed stuffs feeding systems vaccine health protocols all all of that think it gets down to more of maintain the the using a cooperative system is really the only way to allow people the freedom to produce animals the way they want
Track 1Right.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802and the way that they want to They wanna raise them but give them an an outlet that if cattle are losing money on the ho and they're making money in the beef they get a dividend check back that Cooper Of of making money on the the the meat side Right and it's given them the same agreement as the small guy the rancher or the independent cattle feeder the opportunity to instead of fighting price transparency and and some of these things don't hate the player hate the game right And so by coming together you could put together some of the deals on the backside of the business that give you the same advantages of the things that we're trying to have transparency on Um because it helps everybody It would help throughput in the plants It would give them more saleable red meat that was more consistent It would allow the the feed lot or the the cow calf man to to own those cattle all the way to slaughter and then share when times are tough on in the live market get some back in the meat and and vice versa
Track 1Hmm. So in your work with Applebee's, McDonald's, you know, those are, those are the big players. Um, but I think that they can tell us about some of these consumer trends. H how much premium, how much intrinsic value is there if they. Beef from one of these cooperative types that they can tell a story and say, this is whatever the heck local means. Um, but this is a locally grown by farmers and ranchers who own the packing plant, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada. How much value is there to those folks on the consumer end?
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Well l let me just use c a b as an example I mean that's that's what we're talking about right The story the the quality the consistency the eating experience the story behind Certified Angus Um now you're you're just you're just it's the same thing Only it's you know uh you know shaking hands with the people that own the the company the farmers and ranchers owning the plant or owning the operations part or at least owning the meat Um you know I I think that we I think that you see that that portion there being being good Now the the other thing is is when we start to talk about dollars and cents uh while we talk about the premiums that we could get selling the meat I would be remiss to not mention the dollars that we at the ranch leave on the table every day if we don't use steroid implants and commercial calves then not market 'em as nhtc
Track 1Hmm
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802okay There's 50 bucks ahead um for N H tc and if you don't implant the calves on the cow then you need to mark 'em as N H TC because they didn't have steroid implants Um you know and and and horns There's a new study that came out Horns are worth 20 bucks ahead at the when you're selling a cab Um the uh deduction they're not about
Track 1My, my herford breeders are tickled right now that, they can quote Dr. Dan Thompson added value, but.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802but just so many of those B Q A being B Q a certified in superior livestocks market Uh just recently they found out that's that's worth $8 ahead when you market your kids
Track 1Yep.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Uh we we're we're leaving money all over the place Um there's probably a hundred to $200 sitting there and then when you start to think about some of the other things we can do further down the chain I just I'm so excited about this industry I mean we are going to we're gonna see so many cool things happen and it's really time to we should really be pumped to be a part of
Track 1Well, I, I think that's something that we forget about quite often, the beef industry. We are eternal optimists when it comes to breeding time and calving time. And we're eternal pessimists when it comes time to sell those cattle because we start seeing everything that's wrong in the world and we start seeing, you know, whatever the case may be. And, and, There's a lot of things that have to go into capturing those premiums or minimizing any discounts or whatever the case may be. But the first step is having a group that's big enough that you can sell into the supply chain, whether that be through the local barn or direct or on a video or whatever the case may be. But you've got to be able to somehow, you and or your neighbors, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you've gotta be able to put together a load of calves that are similar sized, similar genetic makeup, and tell folks all these things that they have or have not had done to them, uh, in terms of n HTC and everything.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802everything you mentioned in there evenness was about $40 ahead If those cattle were up and down were deducted 40 bucks ahead uh genetics now you know with the the genetic code on superiors there's a that group of of progressive genetics that if you use certain genetics uh that was 25 bucks ahead
Track 1yeah. And we've seen that with our own customers that are part of that s ppg, S P G program. Um, yeah, I mean, it, it rings a bell. It is significant and, and we see it with feed yards calling me saying, where can we buy your customer's cattle? I mean, it's, it's real. And, and all of these things, um, non-planned, whatever the case may be, if you do it and then don't tell anybody, or don't put together a group that can represent that as a group, uh, consistently. Yeah. It's, it's money left on the table. And, and it's probably some, quite often the difference between profit and loss.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Yep Yep And and and big profit I mean if you can squeeze a hundred bucks ahead,
Track 1Oh man.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802come on. I mean, and, and it's right there. Use the right genetics. Be b q a certified, uh, you know, pre-condition them. I, I, I mean, vac 45 was, was 45 bucks ahead,
Track 1And, and a lot of feed yards today would say Vac 60 is even better,
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802yep. Absolutely.
Track 1well we have covered a bunch of territory on here, and I know you've got, um, uh, plenty other information that you could talk about, where all can, folks, if they want to hear more information from you, um, you're still doing doc talk.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Yep. Yep. We still do doc talk, um, 13th season. Um, we'll hit 600 episodes this year,
Track 1That'll good for you.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802and, uh, and we're, and we locked up the sponsorship through 2025, so y'all are stuck with me, for a while. But, uh, doc talk. Is it www dot doc talk tv dot. and, pack, uh, is at, pack It's got an S on it, uh, dot com. uh, we have a website there. Um, I still have my Iowa State, but, uh, I, I'm, uh, I'm kind of on the, what we call phased, uh, retirement type I'm, I'm moving towards, uh, more time in the, in the field and more time with the producers and um, excited about it.
Track 1Well, you're good at that. And, and I think that's, that's valuable to anybody that gets to work with you that way. So we appreciate you being on here. As always, uh, appreciate your dedication to the beef industry and, and sharing some of this information, knowledge in a, in a practical way with, with the producers who hope, hopefully can implement it.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Well, thank you, uh, for all you do.
Track 1You bet. You bet. Well, we'll talk to you again soon and thanks for being here.
dan_4_04-05-2023_100802Thank you.
MattThanks for joining us for practically ranching brought to you by Dale banks, Angus. We just opened our private treaty bull offering this spring. So if you're in the market for practical, profitable, genetics to fit your needs, we'd love to visit with you. Contact Matt today, 6 2 0 5 8 3. 43 0 5 or email us at Matt Perrier. At Dale banks.com. God bless. We'll see again in two weeks here on practically ranching.
