Diana Rodgers is a registered dietitian from Concord, Mass.
She has authored three books, most notably, “The Sacred Cow.” She hosts the Sustainable Dish podcast, plus she founded the Global Food Justice Alliance. This Alliance has quite a mission statement: to advocate for the right of all people to choose nutrient-dense foods such as meat, milk, and eggs, which are critical for nutritious, environmentally sustainable, and equitable food systems that can sustain both human life and the planet.
Global Food Justice Alliance
Sacred Cow
Podcasts Archive - Sustainable Dish
Eat Like a Sustainavore (thinkific.com)
Diana Rodgers is a registered dietitian from Concord, Mass.
She has authored three books, most notably, “The Sacred Cow.” She hosts the Sustainable Dish podcast, plus she founded the Global Food Justice Alliance. This Alliance has quite a mission statement: to advocate for the right of all people to choose nutrient-dense foods such as meat, milk, and eggs, which are critical for nutritious, environmentally sustainable, and equitable food systems that can sustain both human life and the planet.
Global Food Justice Alliance
Sacred Cow
Podcasts Archive - Sustainable Dish
Eat Like a Sustainavore (thinkific.com)
Hello there and welcome to episode 40 of practically ranching. I'm your host, Matt Perrier. As always this podcast is brought to you by Dale banks, Angus your home of practical, profitable genetics for the industry focused cow calf producer. This week's episode checks a lot of boxes. First it's the final episode of season two. So we're going to take a short break after this one and be back at it later this summer. It also marks our one year anniversary of this crazy podcast. And it's my first one with a guest who has also been on several other big name podcasts. The largest being the Joe Rogan experience. Diana Rogers is a registered dietician from Concord, Massachusetts. I first tried to get Diane on the podcast last December, but it didn't work out as usual. I think God must have had a better plan because. I'm not sure that now that we finally got this recorded, I could have planned a better discussion for this our one-year anniversary episode. I don't want to oversell it. But there is a ton of really cool information packed into this one. I think it'll be very thought provoking for all of us that are listening. Now Diana doesn't have a paid gig with any beef organization or any beef company. She probably should, in my opinion, But she still spends nearly every waking hour of her life correcting the anti-media narrative that continues to be told by much of today's society. She's authored three different books. Most notably the sacred cow. She hosts the sustainable dish podcast. Plus she founded the global food justice Alliance. This Alliance has quite a mission statement and that is to advocate for the right of all people to choose nutrient dense foods, such as meat, milk, and eggs, which are critical for nutritious environmentally sustainable and equitable food systems that can sustain both human life. And the planet. It's a mouthful, but it says a lot. Diana is an advocate. She's an activist. She has a lot of insights, a lot of knowledge and a lot of educated opinions on food and nutrition. As I read her book, a few of her opinions on production systems in the beef industry were a bit non-traditional. I haven't watched the film, but as Diana indicates in this podcast, it focuses even more on those regenerative and forage based beef industry issues. But don't let her regenerative leanings of which I hold quite a few myself. Don't let those get in the way of the overall message. And that is, we must come together as a. Industry as individual beef producers. And share the reasons that red meat should be part of a climate friendly, healthy, nutrient dense diet. I asked Diana on this podcast, why she does all this and you'll hear her answer, but I love it. And I think it bears repeating. She said it's the right thing to do. And nobody else is doing. Now. Yes, we do a lot through our beef checkoff and we do a lot through our own. Advocacy efforts, but this is a person. This is a lady who yes, has worked on farms through her life, but probably has a little different perspective than a lot of us. Cowboys and cowgirls, from the Hills. And I'm a sucker for anyone with this kind of passion. And dedication to principle. Now, as she mentioned in my conversation after the podcast off air. She's still got to pay the bills. So I'm putting a bunch of her links in the show notes on this episode, check them out. And if you feel so inclined by or download the sacred cow book. Support her work with the global food justice Alliance by either following their social media. Or even supporting this Alliance financially. But most importantly, Use the information that Diana has made available. And help us all spread the good news of nutritious climate friendly beef to the world.
Track 1:So are you, in Boston now or where are you coming from as we speak?
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Yep. I live outside of Boston in um Concord, Massachusetts.
Track 1:Well, it's a long ways from the Flint Hills of Kansas, but the one time that we did get to meet was in Wichita back in December. I guess you spoke at the Kansas Livestock Association Convention and told us a little bit about your work there. But, um, I guess I, I'd just assumed get right into it and not just tell us. What you do on a daily basis, but give us the why you do some of the things. And, and by the time that folks are hearing this, I will have put an intro together and talked about the book or two or three that you've written and the podcast that you do, and all the speaking that you do and, and activism that you do. But, I'll let you tell'em firsthand and, and then like I said, let's get into the why's too.
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Yeah, sure. So, um, I grew up, With undiagnosed celiac disease. So for your listeners who don't know what that is, it's an autoimmune condition where your body starts attacking your own intestines when you eat gluten, which is found in wheat products. Um, and so I didn't know that that was what was going on with me and making me so sick until I was in my mid twenties. Uh, so as a kid I was, um, quite malnourished. Basically everything I ate just went straight through me. and at the same time I also, um, started working on some farms. They were vegetable farms at the time, through high school and through college. Summertime. I just loved being outside. I was a horseback rider, so I loved, uh, animals and, uh, just anything I could do to be outside and producing food, which, uh, again at the time was vegetables. and.
Track 1:and
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:It slowly grew into me wanting to learn more about nutrition, just to fix what was going on with myself and to feed my family better. And so I, I first studied at the Nutritional Therapy Association, which is sort of a alternative nutrition program, very focused on the work of We Eight Price, which some of your listeners might know about. Um, uh, the idea is, you know, let's eat how our ancestors ate. And, it's very focused on not eating ultra processed foods, eating lots of animal source, you know, proteins and fats and organic vegetables and things like that.
Track 1:that. uh,
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:it started really fixing things and then I got more interested in nutrition, read a book called The Paleo Solution, which had just come out in 2010 and decided to try this paleo diet. So went even further back to, you know, not just, you know, a hundred or 200 years ago, but like way back to hunter gatherer times. And for me it just fixed everything. I mean, it, you know, it's was not only gluten free, but also just really nutritious. Um, again, lots of animal sourced foods, but kind of really cut out a lot of those, uh, grains and excess carbohydrates that were really
Track 1:really
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:making me not feel good and just focused on vegetables and meat. Um, and at the time I was living on a working organic farm. I was, I was married to a farmer.
Track 1:And,
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:And, um, you know, that's what we were raising on the farm too. It started out as a vegetable farm. And then we realized, you know, you can either compost that gigantic zucchini or you could feed it to a chicken and turn it into eggs. And so we got chickens, we got pigs, we got sheep. And every year for Christmas, I would actually give him a new livestock book, hoping that he would, you know, that year, get some goats or whatever. And so, um, I decided to dive deeper into nutrition to become a registered dietician so that I could work more with the medical community take health insurance and, and just, you know, seem a little more legitimate, um, than just a, a, you know, nutritionist, which pretty much anyone can call themselves. And, know, as I was doing the, the traditional dietetics program, is, you know,
Track 1:know, there's
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:lot of things that I philosophically have issues with, with, um, typical dieticians and, and what we're trained to say. But in particular, there was, you know, not only was processed food okay, but this idea that, you know, eating less meat is, know, better for the environment, better for health, and something that we, you know, should encourage our clients to do. Um, yet, you know, diets that push away ultra processed food are not okay. and you know, as I'm living on this farm where we're like a closed system, we like producing all our own fertility and, you know, growing the healthiest food possible. It just wasn't making any sense to me how, you know, this type of food that that is, you know, providing great nutrition and um, you know, fertility for the soil, why that's so bad for the environment, right? So I decided to, um, get more into this space of, um, why livestock produ production. can be done in a sustainable way. And why eating meat is also a very healthy thing to do. And uh, unfortunately there just are no other people, uh, that are tackling this from the nutrition and sustainability side. So there are, you know, a lot of sustainability advocates, uh, pushing for livestock production. There are a lot of nutritionists that are pushing for animal sourced foods, but you know, they really need to be married together because we have to look at both of them at the same time. And then we have to look at ethics and, and so that's what drove me to, um, write the book Sacred Cow, to um, produce the film Sacred Cow, and to do the work that I do today.
Track 1:Well, so much of what you are doing today, um, if it is being done, it's being done by folks like a Cattleman's organization or the pork producers or the poultry producers or someone else who. by admission has a very jaded perspective. We have a reason that we want to see the findings come out, that meat and livestock can fit as part of a healthy, you know, heart, healthy, even diet. Um, livestock can be part of the actual, challenges to fix climate change and so many things like that. But here you are coming at it from, like you said, as a dietician, but even before that, I think you may have missed a s a step in there in your history. Were you not a vegetarian or maybe even a vegan at one point, or maybe lean toward that or was that just something that I read somewhere else?
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:yeah, in college I definitely tried to be a mostly vegetarian. I was eating a lot of lentils and, and, you know, deep fried tofu when I would order Chinese food, things like that. But, um, I was always so hungry that it never really worked for me and it made me feel so bad.
Track 1:bad. I bet. Yeah.
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:interestingly in, in my, um, film, sacred Cow, every single nutrition expert was featured in that film was either a, a vegan or vegetarian before they went back to eating meat. So, um, a lot of my colleagues, uh, have been there.
Track 1:there, and that's the path that I see so often and like so many things in life when folks have made those choices. Early and then come back around. They're an even bigger believer. Um, and I see it with someone's faith journey. I see it with, you know, addictions, all these different things. When someone comes there on their own, they're the biggest fan of the lifestyle or the diet that, uh, that you're choosing. So tell us a little about writing the book and where that, where those steps led you and, and what you discovered that maybe really were the aha moment that convinced you that, that things needed to change.
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Yeah, so I had written a couple of cookbooks on, um, one was, uh, paleo Lunches and Breakfast on the Go, which was just like your easy paleo, kind of just nutrition focused cookbook, that a publisher actually approached me wanting to, wanting someone to write it. The second one I wrote was called The Homegrown Paleo Cookbook, and it was actually a, like a homesteading book, how to Grow It, how to Cook it, kind of book. but I was really dying to write Sacred Cow for the longest time. I didn't have the name Sacred Cow. It was a, it was a bunch of different names before we settled on the word Sacred Cow. And, um, I approached Rob Wolf, who, uh, is the person who wrote. The Paleo solution, back in 2010 is when it came out and he and I became friends. We both came to nutrition from a similar place. We, he, um, also has some health, like pretty serious health, um, reasons why he can't eat, um, a green heavy, ultra processed food heavy diet. And, I kept pushing him to write this book and he kept saying, it's not time yet. It's not time yet. You know, we're, you know, nobody really is caring about sustainability. And so, you know, we would go to these conferences, these nutrition conferences, and there'd be like five people in the room caring about sustainability. Everyone else just wanted like six pack abs uh, you know, to like optimize how they look naked, you know? and there's just this like, not my, Goal for anyone ever. so, um, but slowly we got, uh, more of a following in the sustainability field. We started, um, you know, learning more about regenerative ag and you know, started visiting farms, started getting more involved in the ag, world and the livestock world. and so the book really started with us for about a year, going through the table of contents and really basically writing it from, you know, what are all the concerns people have and how can we address them? So we, you know, right in the beginning of the book, we have like a choose your own adventure section. Does meat cause cancer page, you know, 32 Does, you know, what about meat and heart disease? What, what about greenhouse gases? What about, um,
Track 1:Um,
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:livestock Used too much water, too much land. We kind of took all of the questions, laid them out, and, A way that made the most sense. Um, we, you know, a lot of people approach this from an ethical perspective. A lot of people approach this from an environmental perspective. And so we decided to start this with the nutrition. So we start the book in nutrition, uh, with a little brief history on how our ag system got to where it is today and, and then why meat has been so vilified and how did that even come about? What, why is that even a thing? You know, like 20 years ago it wasn't a thing really, you know? Um, and so we, we nutritionally there are, there is no better food for humans than animal sourced foods, whether that's, you know, milk, dairy, uh, other dairy products, eggs, fish or, or beef. And as long as someone's getting, you know, a pretty decent amount of animal sourced foods in their diet, they can pretty much. Get by. Um, the, the more the better in most cases, unless someone's like overeating completely overeating calories. Um, but where the wheels really fall off is when someone goes vegan. And there's just so many problems associated with the vegan diet, and some people do a little bit better on a vegan diet than others. And there are genetic reasons why, uh, for example, Vitamin A is in, its ready to use form in animal foods. It's in the form of retinol, which is what our bodies need. But in plant source foods, it's in the form of beta Carin. So that's what makes sweet potatoes and carrots orange.
Track 1:that's
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:carine. And about 50% of all people don't have the gene that will help them make the conversion from beta carine to retinol easily. And so, uh, there you go. 50% of the population right there would probably be vitamin A deficient on an animal free diet. Uh, so, you know, we see the vegan diet working for, you know, 25 year old athletes who not raised vegan, who temporarily go vegan. We know that 85% of, uh, people who commit to a vegan diet go back to eating meat after three months. And so it's not a sustainable diet, it doesn't make you feel full, and it's not giving you the, there are certain nutrients that only animal source foods will give you. So, you know, I don't advocate for a carnivore only diet too. I know that's a big fad right now. Some people might, uh, you know, see influencers on social media that eat only meat. Um, I. Believe in a, in a balanced diet where you get a lot of nutrients from a lot of different things. And I think you should eat as many different foods that you enjoy that don't give you problems as possible. But, uh, but the, uh, to win the argument that meat is a nutritious food is a pretty easy argument to win. So we start out right there, you know, uh, it doesn't matter whether a food is ethical or sustainable. If it's not a healthy food to make in the first place, then, you know, we shouldn't even be having this conversation. So we start there and then we move into the environmental argument and the ethical argument, which are, uh, a little more complicated and nuanced. Um, and then halfway through writing this book, another vegan documentary had come out. They were showing it in schools. They sh, you know, probably not in Kansas, but definitely here
Track 1:Oh, You'd be surprised.
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Oh really?
Track 1:Yeah.
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Oh, okay.
Track 1:few places. Yeah.
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Okay, well, so a, a vegan documentary had come out, uh, in around 2000, I don't know, 1918. And I thought, oh, you know, this book is great and it's gonna be amazing, but it's probably not gonna reach the population that needs to hear it most. And so a film will do that. And so I decided to start the film Sacred Cow at the same time I was writing the book and release them together.
Track 1:Well, the, the way that you went about putting that book together, and especially like you said, the table of contents where you can go right to addressing an issue instead of having to read, start to finish and find it all at once. I mean, it's almost, it's perfect for today cuz it's almost like a search engine, right? I mean, you go to like a table of contents should be, but in this case, in nutrition and choices and things like that. A lot of times folks want the sound bite, they want the quick and easy answer, and then they can dig and read the rest of the book. So it's, it's, I think it's perfect. I think it's perfect for the times. And you know, there's so many different things I want to dig a little deeper on, but how I found out about the book and about you and Rob was when you were on Joe Rogan. What's that been a year ago? I assume? I'm not the only one that probably heard that episode. And I texted a couple of my friends and, and was like, you gotta check this thing out. It's awesome. And I hadn't read it at the time, I have since, but, uh, um, yeah, I mean it's, it's so refreshing to hear two folks coming at this issue from the perspective that you're coming because there have been a lot of us within the livestock segment and the food production and the agriculture segment. Who have been saying some of the same things, but it means so much more when it's coming from you, from somebody who doesn't necessarily have a dog or necessarily an organization in the fight. You just have seen it firsthand. You have seen the pitfalls of a, like you said, highly processed, mainly plant-based diet and, and just how it made you feel. Um, so I think that's really cool. one of the things that I heard you say was that meat and livestock production began to be vilified. And, and you said 20 years ago, it, I think, started even further back than that. What did you see? What, what was the first, if there was a watershed moment, what happened that started that process? And then what has happened since and why, why have we seen that,
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Well, I mean, animal sourced foods as, as you know, and, and, and money for listeners know, uh, livestock have been, uh, demonized for a while now. Um, you know, it's wrong to kill beautiful animals and the, um, Animal rights movement have been pushing the sort of ethical it's wrong, idea for a very long time. And it actually started in the United States. It started back with the Seventh Day Adventist Church. Uh, because, uh, and I, and I've read a lot on them, we go over it a little bit in the book, but, um, the, they felt that it was a puritanical religion that felt that eating animal flesh would give you like impure thoughts. And so if we could just keep everyone as anemic as possible, um, no coffee, no alcohol, no no un you know, onions, I think we're one of them. Um, but definitely no meat, um, would keep you healthy. And at that time we didn't, this was in the mid 18 hundreds. We didn't know about germ theory and so there were a lot of people that were eating spoiled meat and getting sick. so, um, they would go to these retreats. These sanitariums, which were sort of half half health spas, and they were fed a vegetarian diet and they would feel better, but that was really because they were, you know, not eating contaminated meat. It wasn't the meat, it was, you know, um, but they were pro proselytizing this idea that meat was, um, unholy. so, um, the animal rights piece didn't really come into it until about the turn of the century. Um, and that's when, you know, people started questioning. And at the same time, that's when.
Track 1:when
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Uh, books started to come out that were anthropomorphizing you know, giving them names. And, and we started to see, you know, Bambi and, and, you know, uh, uh, animals that, that, you know, could talk and things like that. That wasn't really a thing before. so people started, you know, further removing themselves from food production. They were moving off farms. They were living in cities, and they weren't encountering animals the way do as, as a livestock producer or someone who grew up on a farm. They were seeing them as mostly. And so it's wrong to eat your friend, right? It's wrong It's wrong to eat, you know, uh, bingo, the dog, right? And so, um, that's when the animal rights piece came in and people started questioning whether or not it was okay to eat an animal for food. Uh, that movement stuck around until.
Track 1:until
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Probably the, the, the nineties when the environmental case started to come into play. When, when people started really questioning, CAOs and, and big ag, you know, pollution and, and the way, uh, confined animal production was happening. Um,
Track 1:um,
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:And then more recently, a carbon. talking about carbon emissions. Carbon emissions, and that's really the alt meat folks who are, you know, making claims their food is, you know, can't really make any nutrition claims, so they stay away from that because they can't win on nutrition. But they make these claims that, you know, no animal has to die. And we have less carbon emissions, which interestingly, just last week, a study came out of uc, Davis showing that, um, lab meat is, uh, four to 25 times more carbon emissions then be production. So they can't even win on that. But th this is the promise. This is how they're getting all their funding they're promising, you know, they own the ip, they own, you know, the intellectual property to the production. an energy intensive process that uses mono crops that are, you know,
Track 1:know,
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:produced and, um, taking this stuff into a factory to make meat when you can just use a grazing animal on grass, directly converting solar energy into meat. So, I predict that this whole bubble, just like Beyond Meat, is about to go bankrupt, but it, the whole lab meat is a bubble that's gonna burst pretty soon and that's really what has been driving the conversation and why someone is, why everyone is so obsessed with this, what I call carbon tunnel vision. largely driven by the, the folks who are trying to make a profit at Lab meat, trying to deflect the negative energy from fossil fuels and from, um, processed food into, you know, just focusing on when you know, there are so many other aspects to what makes. l uh, any kind of ag system sustainable, right? There's water cycles, there's, um, biodiversity. There's like entire ecosystem function. There's all of those things, which, you know, can't be won by the lab meat folks. They can only pretend to win on carbon emissions.
Track 1:emissions. Well, and that's the tough thing when we get to talking about really any of these discussions, whether it's nutrition and, or environmental issues or anything else. Uh, for every decision we make, for every change we make, that we somehow are convinced or convinced ourselves that is for the better. There are going to be consequences, quite often unintended consequences, but that may be worse than what it was that we came from and that we started with. And that's anytime we start talking about these mammoth changes to you know, food production, diet, health, whatever the case may be. Um, just because. whoever decides that they don't like a certain thing, and we're gonna migrate to that. Yeah. The question is then what, what have we, what have we improved? Because quite often it's even worse.
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:uh, yeah. I mean, we saw it with margarine and butter. We, um, we realized that margarine wasn't as good and and butter the real thing butter was actually probably not as bad. And, and, and maybe even good. Right. And, we'll, we'll see that again with meat too.
Track 1:Well, and, and I'm just old enough, or at least I hear my parents talk about when this high fructose corn syrup was a big step in the right direction, supposedly because it was better for you than Kane Sugar. And, you know, now today it's, it's just the opposite. I mean, uh, uh, a lot of these products that we think, uh, have been improved upon have actually Mother Nature and God had it, had it pegged pretty, pretty well in its original form.
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Yep.
Track 1:So you've talked, I think I've heard you talk about some of the research that was done, on the inclusion of beef in a heart healthy diet and reaching all the way back to the initial work that may have been done. Was it Ansel Keys? I believe that
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Mm-hmm.
Track 1:did some of the research was that, and maybe it was Rob that talked about this, but that I think was one of those watershed moments that made me really go, okay, there's something more at work here than just a researcher trying to improve human health. There's a reason and a rationale. I mean, what, what part did that play in it? And I guess for those that may not have heard your podcast with Rogan and some of these, um, things, walk us back through that and, and how much you think that had to do with some of these thoughts that we can't eat red meat and still have a heart healthy diet.
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Yeah. So, um, there was a lot of things happening at the time. There was, um, Earl Butts was coming into power and, and, and so there was like this convergence during this time when, um, you know, ag was getting bigger, get bigger, get out, right? So there was that happening. We had a president that had a heart attack, and then we have this guy who is going around telling people that saturated fat is the cause of heart disease. Um, and so meat is conflated with saturated fat, but it was really saturated fat that he was, that he was after. But the problem is there was other things lumped in with saturated fat and that.
Track 1:that
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Also he was comparing countries, which we know in research you can't do. So you can't look at a diet of, uh, someone living in Mexico and the diet of someone living in Finland and say, oh, well
Track 1:there it is.
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:know, tortilla ships. It's, it's, you know, don't eat tortilla ships and then you won't, you know, then that'll be the solution. But, um, I believe it was Mexico and Finland that had the exact same fat intake, and yet, you know, one country had more deaths than the other. And so you absolutely can't just look at an entire population of people and say, oh, well they tend to eat more of this. It must be that. So, so we know, you know, anyone who's took statistics 1 0 1 knows that association, uh, doesn't mean correlation or association doesn't equal
Track 1:causation, right?
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:So in nutrition research, it's really difficult to, you know, look at someone's diet and pinpoint one, it's actually impossible. You can't do it unless you have them locked in a metabolic ward you're feeding everyone exactly the same food with only one difference. One group gets, uh, let's say salt and the other one doesn't. And then you can see what happens with salt or or meat, for example. And so when we're looking at a typical vegetarian population versus a typical meat eating population, you know, they've done a lot of studies with, um, seven day Adventist groups, for example. So these folks also don't drink, they don't smoke, they have community. Um, and they generally live healthier lifestyles than your typical tailgating drinking dude who's going to football games and not moving around a lot. You know? Yes, he's probably eating some hotdogs, but is that the same? of meat that someone else might be eating. And is it really the hotdog that's the problem or is it everything else that that guy's doing? Right? Um, and so we know that when, um, you look at people who shop at health food stores, so you take someone that shops at like a whole Foods market and you look at the folks who buy meat versus the people who don't buy meat. You know, your typical health food shopper a similar lifestyle. They're just a little more likely to work out more. They're a little less likely to smoke and drink as much. Um, and they found absolutely no difference in longevity between those two populations, whether or not they, they ate meat or did not eat meat. So, um, we know that when you adjust for all those lifestyle factors, there's no difference at all. Um, and even in those studies that have found, um, processed meat causes colorectal cancer, interestingly in parts of Asia, processed meat is with healthier outcomes.
Track 1:Hmm.
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:So, um, you know, Hong Kong, for example, has, the longest lifespan and the highest meat consumption the world.
Track 1:so,
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:So, uh, what we, what I know and what most people should know is that it has a lot more do to do with income level access to good healthcare, more time off from work, a less stressful life. you know, these are the types of things that can predict longevity much better than, um, whether or not someone is eating, um, a McDonald's Happy Meal every night, or, know, a vegetarian type diet. I mean, there's just too many different factors, but, socioeconomic status and income are, are the biggest predictors of longevity. There is.
Track 1:Well, I think I heard you speaking on, on your podcast may have been a few weeks ago, uh, gentleman from the United Kingdom, uh, burrows, I believe it was,
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:yeah. Glen Burrows.
Track 1:Yes. That you were talking about. when you are trying to convince folks to take on this anti-me anti carnivore diet, it's almost this elitist, Aura that folks take on that, um, that, you know, you're, you're evil just because you made that kind of a decision. And the fact of the matter is that not everybody can go to Whole Foods and buy enough of the high dollar stuff to get a, the nutrition that they need and, um, you know, just, it's unfair really
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Yeah. So, you know, I definitely like to point out that a vegan diet is a diet of privilege. um, it, it is something that, um, you know, your average person who's really struggling, can't afford to do, they don't have the time to be grazing all day to be preparing these elaborate meals. A lot of people don't have the educa. I mean, you need a lot of supplements also to, to be on a vegan type diet. I personally don't care if someone chooses to be vegan for personal reasons. I have friends that are vegan. What I do care about are people who are then imposing their moral. Perspective other people. And so that's, um, where I have a big problem. So, meat free Mondays, vegan Fridays in public schools, that is absolutely not okay. Um, telling poor children, especially poor children. So in the New York City public school system, 70% of these kids are low income, 10% are homeless. And the mayor has mandated meat on Fridays, in addition to they already don't have meat on Mondays. These kids are going home to food insecure on the weekends. And now we are taking the most nutritious piece of that meal, even if it is a burger.
Track 1:to,
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:You know, people associate meat with burgers, therefore bad.
Track 1:burger
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:patties, even from McDonald's are just ground meat, salt and pepper. That's it. There's, there's, they're not like pumped full of hormones and chemicals and all the kinds of things that a lot of health influencers like to tell people. Um, that is the healthiest piece of that meal. So you tell a low income kid that meat is bad for them. They're not gonna go get a$20 sweet green kale and quinoa bowl, know, they're just gonna
Track 1:get
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:get a subway sandwich without the meat in it. Right. That's not helping anybody out at all. They're losing out on iron and protein, B12, nutrients that they need for cognitive development. So, um, that's what I try to push back against.
Track 1:And the kids that you reference that are either homeless or going home to a place that they may not get a decent meal of any kind from Friday night till Monday morning. Now we've tacked on two more days, meatless Monday, and whatever we're calling Fridays now in New York City, um, that they still get robbed. I mean, they're, they're already getting a. A rough gig at home. And now the school's doing the same thing simply because they've bought into this narrative that meat is killing the environment or meat is murder or meat is whatever. Instead of meat is a way that we can hopefully get this kid from Friday afternoon at three 30 until we see him or her again Monday morning and here we are, squid kicking it again
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Yeah. And there's absolutely no science behi, uh, to back up any of that. So we have no evidence to show that pulling meat away from hungry kids will do the many good. Uh, it's also not gonna make a dent in their carbon emissions. A Mayor Adam, by the way, is also now, uh, partnering with American Express to track meat and dairy spending, um, by New York City residents. And, um, and I know in. I believe it's in Australia now. I just heard that, um, when you get your credit card bill, there's, there's one credit card company that now is going to be letting you know what your emissions were. Um, they're not taxing you yet, but you know, that's, that's not a far leap from what is, um, currently actually just bought an airplane ticket and they told me what my carbon emissions were and they asked me to pay extra, um, to offset my carbon emissions. And so, you know, all these things are coming and, um, this over focus on just carbon without looking at the big picture, without looking at, I mean, a pair of jeans is what, 90. Thousand gallons of water or something like that. Like there are so many issues with modern living today. Um, how, you know, what were the carbon emissions of this laptop? I'm talking at you from, you know, uh, the battery who, who, who dug the minerals for this battery in, uh, in China or Afghanistan. So there are just a lot of issues to be overly focused on meat and dairy, which are the, the healthiest foods people can be eating. It's absolutely ridiculous.
Track 1:So we can agree on the utter craziness of all of the, Environmental situation, you know, nutrition, health assumptions, presumptions, and, and I don't know ever figure out exactly how or why we got here. But the fact of the matter is if you are seeing this on your plane ticket and Australians are seeing it on their credit card bill, um, it's gonna be here, it's gonna be here before we do it, and it's probably gonna be here for a while. How best as the beef community, as agricultural producers in general, how do we best play in this new normal? We're doing some work. I mean, Dr. Frank Mi loaner at uc, Davis and, and of course N C B A are are are doing things to try to, benchmark what it is. Our emissions are what it is, beef's carbon F footprint is. is that enough and how do we phrase that in terms that the typical consumer in the US and the company that's writing a lot of this marketing BS and narratives, how do we, what do we need to do to make that fit and, and show how we can be part of this world going forth?
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:It's tricky. Um, I can tell you what I'm doing, and, you know, I can give you some thoughts. I mean, I think that the nutritional benefits of meat are underplayed still, and we need to do some work in there. And it's an easy, easy, easy argument to win. I mean, it really is. meat is just more nu nutrient dense than. Plant foods. Um, I actually, uh, am just finishing now a paper that I'm about to submit to a scientific journal about just that and why policies that pull meat away vulnerable populations. So that's, uh, you know, women, children, and the elderly. Um, why that's unethical? Because it's just not founded in any, you know, credible evidence. Uh, so we need more people out there who are, unapologetic about the positive role. Meat and, and other animal source foods play to the human diet. And not only for, um, these vulnerable populations, but also for people who are overweight and obese. Um, meat is. Satiating, it makes you feel full. It's actually low in calories for the same amount of protein that you can get from something like beans and rice. It's about a quarter of the calories. Um, so it has a role to play not only in, you know, feeding hungry kids, but also in helping someone lose weight. Uh, as a weight loss dietician, when someone comes to me looking to lose weight, the first thing I do is jack up their meat intake because they'll feel fuller longer and they're less likely to eat other foods, uh, that they shouldn't be eating because they're so satisfied from the big juicy steak they had. So we, we need to kind of normalize, uh, that meat is a healthy food and should be encouraged and not discouraged. So that's the first thing.
Track 1:So how often when you tell that client who comes in there that, Hey, you need to eat more meat, not less. How often do you get a deer in the headlights look? Or you've gotta be kidding me. Or what are you smoking? Do they believe you?
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Uh, I can just generalize. men are usually running out the door to go buy a steak before I can even finish the sentence. Um, women have a harder time because, you know, even when I'm at a restaurant, if I'm at a table and there's, I order a steak and, and maybe there's a guy at the table that orders chicken or fish,
Track 1:they switch
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:they sw they do the wrong
Track 1:profilers.
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:So we need more women to, to to also be, unapologetically okay about eating steak. Cuz you know, meat is, uh, associated with masculinity and, you know, power and it has all these like connotations that we need to just kind of get rid of and just, you know, it's a healthy food moms, you need to be feeding it to your kids. Uh, so I work a lot with trying to make women in particular feel good about, feel okay about eating meat and, and also feeding it to other children. Um, so as a fellow mom, um, I feel like I can influence them in that direction.
Track 1:So how ironic is it in the day and age where we're so concerned with gender and making sure that everyone has an equal footing? How, how ironic is it that some of the same folks who are saying that women need to be empowered are also saying that we need to improve our carbon footprint by eating less meat when in actuality it's probably the exact opposite. I mean,
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:I know.
Track 1:girl power go have a T-bone
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Exactly. I know. So I am, I am all about, uh, a new campaign showing women, you know, like got milk, but like, got steak, right? And, and just showing powerful women eating steak that I would love that and I would be all about it. And I know lots of women that would be very proud role models for that. I think we need um, especially women who have a medical background. There's a few female doctors out there who, um, are, you know, really pro meat and pro mussel. Uh, Dr. Gabrielle Lyon is one of my favorite, uh, influencers in that space. She, she talks about meat in the same way I do, and also the importance of having muscle, for women. I mean, you wanna be strong and, and, and functional. Um, and that's part of being an empowered woman in today's society is to be physically strong as well as, you know, all the other things. So,
Track 1:Well, and I think there are more and more folks like yourself, whether it be in the nutrition community, whether it be in the, in the medical community as and anybody who influences folks' decisions there. And even just the general train personal trainers and life coaches. I've, I've heard time and time again just over the last. Three or four years. And, and maybe it's because of Sacred Cow, maybe it's because finally someone else besides a bunch of cattlemen trying to talk people into the fact that not only is meat not bad for you, it's quite likely the thing that makes you, all of the things that you wish you were feel better, more satisfied mentally, more stable, you know, you name it, go down the list. Um, yeah, it can be the solution, not, not the problem.
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:I, unfortunately, the trend right now, um, e even at the gym where I go, the trainers, the nutritionist, they're, they're very meat phobic
Track 1:really still.
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:plant forward. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, and in fact, when I, I work out, uh, with one of the, the head trainer at this gym, and when I told him I was a dietician that I didn't need his nutrition advice, he was like, oh God. And, and then I, and then he got to know me and he is like, oh, I'm so relieved that you're pro meat. Because every other nutritionist that I've met here, or trainer that I work with here uh, plant-based. And so, um, it's only growing in that, in that world, the nutrition world, um, and the, and the fitness world that to, to go plant-based is, you know, the virtuous way to go. And, you know, and because it, it's got so many, it's like not only virtuous, but also cleaner. You know, they see it as, um, you know, meat is dirty, meat is, um, not virtuous, like ungodly. Uh, it's, um, you know, bad for the environment. You're, you're, you're harming animals, gonna make yourself fat. I mean, there's so many, wrong stereotypes that we have to dismantle, um, that it's really tricky, especially on the coasts, you know, where people are really from, food production and they just do not understand at all, um, what's going on with, you know, the real way things are happening farms and, and ranches.
Track 1:where are they getting that message? Where, where are they getting the message that meat is dirty, meat is bad, meat is unhealthy, et cetera, et cetera.
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Yeah. I mean, it's celebrity culture. It's influencer culture. It's governments and politicians are, are doing, I mean, mayor Adams in New York City is, is, is a huge proponent of this. you know, he's highly influenced by, there's a couple universities that are ideologically anti-me. it's a really powerful narrative that not many people feel comfortable publicly pushing back against because maybe they don't, you know, like a lot of nutrition influencers don't wanna wade into this because they're just gonna get negative feedback. They don't know how to defend the environmental or the ethical piece. It's too much work. I mean, I have, I spend a lot of time on social media every day pushing back and, you know, it's sort of my full-time job I could be making money and I'm not, you know, because I, because of what I'm saying. But it's the right thing to do and no one else is doing it. But, you know, I could be selling supplements, I could be having a very successful skincare line. I could be doing all these other things that actually pull an income in that I'm not doing because the work I do, a about this anti-me narrative.
Track 1:So two questions for you. How are you getting up every morning and helping us defend our. Name and, and really let's, let's quit playing defense and play offense. How are you getting up every morning and trying to improve people's health when they're being told by millions of others that what they're doing is actually making them healthy, even though it's not? And then why, and maybe it's why first and how second?
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Yeah. Um, w well, why? Because I just have always done what I've thought is the right thing, whether or not it's. most profitable thing, or, or, or the popular thing. And that's just my personality. Um, how, uh, you know, I, I, I have limited time for one-on-one consults these days. So I started, uh, I turned sacred cow basically into a course, uh, called Sustaina War, and I'm able to reach a lot more people for.
Track 1:for
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:less than the cost of a one hour consult with me. They can just take my course. They can learn about their personal nutrition and also how to push back against the anti meat narrative just by taking course, which gets them hours and hours and hours of content for, again, less, less than would, would cost to talk to me for an hour. So, um, so there's that. And then I also have a nonprofit called the Global Food Justice Alliance, uh, where people can join and they can support me and part of their money goes to meet donations. I recently partnered with the N F L and I'm getting meat sticks to kids backpacks to get them,
Track 1:good for you.
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:know, especially, uh, you know, we just did something in Cincinnati where, I mean, these kids are on buses, you know, for
Track 1:long time
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:hours and hours and hours. And these, these snacks that these kids are getting, these like. These candies and, and gummy things. I mean, it's just, that's not real food. So we're getting them, B sticks, you know, right into their backpacks and, I'm hoping to work with some more organizations in that way. Uh, it was great that the N F L reached out too because, you know, those are role models, those strong role models that kids will listen to. Um, I have another project that I'm percolating with, with Nick Offerman, who was the, uh, narrator of my film. Um, and we're hoping to get that out to schools across the country. Nick is really passionate about farming and, um, you know, people working the land and livestock and, um, you know, like he, he's a funny guy on tv, but he's actually, uh, really passionate about all this stuff. And so, um, we're hoping to, you know, get this, get this information out into all the classrooms of kids that can't, you know, physically go visit a farm because it's just not a reality for a lot of kids to be able to go to a farm, you know, them. So, um, so I'm hoping to do that through the nonprofit that I have.
Track 1:I have. Well, that's, that's just awesome. And, and especially, you know, when you talk about kids not having that opportunity to see where their food comes from and see not only where it comes from and, and how it comes to the grocery store, to the school, food, lunch line, but see the people that are doing it, that's usually the ticket, but it's impossible. It, it's physically impossible. Especially as you talk about the coasts, which are the hotbed for the misinformation or disinformation or narrative that they are hearing that is very anti ag, anti-me, anti basically farmer. It's impossible to get those folks, even if it's just a few miles out of town, a few miles out of town to see that food production system. And, and so anything that you can do and, and the nice thing about you and the nice thing about folks that come at it from your perspective is you see food production. differently than I see food production as a fifth or sixth generation rancher who has never known anything except stepping off the front porch every morning and not being able to see another structure for miles away. Um, starting before daylight and finishing after the sun goes down day after day and, and being around the animals and cattle. this is normal to us, and for the other 98 or 9% of the population, they don't even realize this exists. So we're terrible. We always, I I, every the, every one of these podcasts, you're actually the one year anniversary of practically ranching, so congratulations. I, you're the biggest guest that we've had yet, and I think it's fitting that here we are a this anniversary, but nearly every podcast, somehow I weave into the discussion that ranchers need to tell our story good as storytellers as we are. We don't understand the folks that we're supposed to be talking to in the first place. You do. And I think that's part of it, that, that makes you unique and makes the message that you're telling so powerful.
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Well, and, and, and I did, I did spend 18 years living on
Track 1:Well, that's true. That's true.
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:catch a chicken pretty fast,
Track 1:you go. And see, I can't even do that, Diana. So, uh, you, you're, you've got me one up,
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:But I can tell you that, uh, I, the, the suburb of Boston that I live in is, is incredibly, uh, wealthy, uh, the children from the school where my kids go to school. My son is studying ag, in, in college. but, uh, but the school that they went to, you know, these kids are gonna be very powerful people in moving forward in the world. Nobody eats meat in our town. Like, like it. you know, they are all driving electric cars. They are all doing the best for the environment. So they think, um, and of course they're, they all wanna live forever and nobody eats meat. So it's, it's very, very rare that I run into somebody who, um, has ever been to a farm. In my regular everyday life. and, you know, a hard time relating actually to, to most people that I run into around here. and so my whole goal is just to shed light to people, uh, who are open-minded and interested. Um, I, I tend not to do debates with vegans or, or really get into it, but, but when someone has an open ear, um, I will definitely, uh, ch chat with them. I've been to the United Nations Climate Change Conference in Egypt last November. Um, and, you know, because of the RD that the medical credential I have, I'm able to wiggle into spaces that most people can't. and, uh, yeah. Anything, listeners can do to support the work I do to buy my book or, or watch my film or, or join, global Food Justice Alliance, um, I, I would highly appreciate.
Track 1:Well, we will, and we will definitely list those if you want to click in the show notes. Um, I think that the book, I haven't actually watched the film, but, um, probably both should be required reading. You can download it and listen to it as you're feeding cattle or driving down the road or whatever else. Um, you want, you wanna jump in and narrate it yourself because the, the auto narration,
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:I've heard. Yeah, I've heard she is a little robotic
Track 1:It's, it's, it's tough, but hey, that's our fault for trying to listen to a book, um, on Audible instead of reading it like we should. But, uh, it's just, it's so refreshing, and I know I said it before, but it's so refreshing to hear it come from someone who, yes, has farmed, has grown crops, has done all of this, but as you said, also lives in suburban Massachusetts that is amongst those who every day are saying that there's something wrong with what it is that farmers and ranchers do. And, and, and that's tough, that's tough for us to even relate to. And, um, you know, the fact that, that you're out there fighting for us and telling that story is, is just, it's awesome. I mean, it's, it's so energizing to me to know that it's not just folks with a. Little dirt on their boots and a messed up hat trying to do it.
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:and uh, and I should note that the, the book has a lot more nuance in the film. There was only so much I could tell in the, um, film. It's, it's very heavily skewed towards regen grazing, but I, um, actually definitely see a place for feedlot finishing. I am not anti feedlot by any means. Um, was just only so much time I had in the film to explain my case for meet in an hour, 20 minutes. Um, but I do go into more detail in the book about, um, know, why feedlot finishing is actually a good use of resources as well.
Track 1:Well, and there's several points in, in the book that, you know, as I was listening to it, um, I went, Ooh, I'm not sure I fully agree with that. And then as I thought about it and as you came back and fleshed it out more, I went, yeah, I get that. And you know, we do some things on our ranch that are much different than someone down the road does it? And that's the beauty of production ag and especially within the beef industry. Um, if you haven't figured it out yet, we're a pretty independent bunch and everybody gets to do things the way they see fit. And sometimes it's because that's the way their father, grandfather, grandmother did it. Sometimes it's because. The resources that they're working with require a different set of management than what some may somewhere else. And I think the, you know, the finishing phase and, and being able to feed those cattle for a relatively brief time, a fairly concentrated diet, and have them close enough that you can monitor health and wellness and everything else and, and get that, what I would call us grain finished beef, taste and flavor. Um, I think it makes a lot of sense. I think it makes efficient use of resources, things like that. But, uh, but yeah, I mean, there are points, whether it be your book or someone else's, that not everybody within the agriculture may say. Yeah, that's exactly right. But the fact of the matter is, it is a way to get folks who aren't necessarily involved in the production of beef cattle to at least ask questions and at least sit down and go, you know what? what that, what that nutritionist lady said in Sacred Cow that may be worth considering. Maybe I should get a steak tonight. Maybe I should consider fighting back when. Yeah. The mayor of New York says that my kids don't get to eat meat on Mondays and Fridays, or whatever the case may be. So it, it's, it's a segue. It's a, um, it's a gateway, I think for a really, really good discussion that we need to have.
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Yeah. And you know, one point that I learned when I was in Ireland last October for the, for the International Meat Summit was that for every pound plant-based protein, there are four pounds of fibrous waste that have no other use in our food system other than feeding them to cattle. that alone is a really great way of opening someone's eyes to, Oh. So that could like sit in a pile and ait greenhouse gases, I could put it into a cow's digestive system and turn it into meat. Hmm. What's the more efficient, you know, and then I can say, and then, you know, when they're eating some corn, The feed conversion ratio is really just 2.5, you know, then I can like get into it with them and say, you know, as a dietician I would say, know, that gigantic bowl of corn or that small piece of meat, you know, which one is, is healthier for you to be eating as a human. And, you know, we can kind of get into it there. So, you know, there's, there's ways to get into the conversation. I think as long as they're somewhat open-minded.
Track 1:Yeah. And, and that again, it, it segues into this great conversation about whether that is food waste or production waste that can then be fed to an animal or whether it is barren, desolate. Arid regions that grow nothing but grass. Well, because of all the rocks and all the hills and the lack of water, et cetera, et cetera. That would probably still be the great American desert, if not for ruminants like cattle that can take that same quote unquote fibrous product that would've been considered waste and turn it into the most dense nutrition food that there is out there. And so, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a narrative that we probably should have structured 30 years ago that we didn't feel like we had to, because we knew it was true. We knew that folks would choose this because of its zinc, iron and protein, because of the families that raised it, the fam, you know, whatever the ca story may be. Meanwhile, Someone else was writing the narrative that was vastly different. And, and here we are trying to play catch up and, and probably not doing as good a job as what we'd like to be.
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Right, right.
Track 1:So every, every book that you write, every speaking engagement that you have an opportunity, every consult and video and, and everything else that you do through, you know, the, the Global Food Justice Alliance, everything you can do is helping. And, and, um, I think you're talking to several thousand this week that are gonna, if they ever get a chance, send you a thank you note and anything we can do, and I guess I would offer as well from, from the entire US beef industry, anything that we can do to help you do an even better job with those clients. And with those writings, um, let us know. You have my contact info, info. I know that you work with a lot in our beef industry and, We can't do this without rds like yourself, that can carry the message even better than we can. So, you know, just thank you for being on here. Thank you for what you're doing. Keep up the great work. Um, it's, it's yeoman's work, but, uh, we can't tell you thanks enough.
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Well, thank you so much. I guess the, the only bit, uh, of advice I would give to listeners is to stop in fighting. see so many arguments between and, you know, everybody's right. Everyone's doing it better than the other guy at the street, and, and, and it doesn't help when we've got this huge.
Track 1:huge
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Plant-based this like David and Goliath situation, and it, it really sometimes feels that way. So, you know, I try to be kind of, uh, meet Switzerland when it comes to production and I can appreciate, I can appreciate, you know, that everyone's trying to do the right thing for their situation. And, um, and there's a, there's a lot of good work that's being done out there in a, in a, a bunch of different ways. And, and I am, uh, you know, defender of me.
Track 1:well, you do a great job of it and you don't realize this, but there is no way that you could have, uh, summed up the reason for this podcast that was started a year ago today. Um, because that was exactly why as I watched social media posts from individual ranchers and farmers taking pot shots at each other and this or that management or marketing technique or this or that organization, that's why we started this podcast in the first place. And so, um, the fact again, that from the outside looking in, that you have seen that and the, the disastrous effects that it has on, on our ways of life, um, is proof positive that, uh, yeah, we need to, need to listen and, and learn and hopefully move on together.
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Yeah. Sounds
Track 1:Well, thank you so much for being here, Diana. I appreciate a bunch and, uh, we'll look forward to helping out with your mission as any way we can.
diana_2_05-23-2023_143509:Thanks so much. Have a great afternoon. Thank you for having me on.
Thanks again for joining us this week. As I mentioned, we're going to step away from practically ranching for a few weeks or a month. But we'll be back toward the end of the summer. So if you haven't already be sure to hit the like or the follow or the subscribe or whatever button it is that, uh, will help notify you when season three cranks back up. And if you can't stand the weight, go back and catch any past episodes you may have missed over the last year. We look forward to visiting again soon. Thanks for listening and have a great summer.