Joe Goggins is an auctioneer, livestock market owner, commercial cow-calf producer, yearling operator and seedstock producer near Billings, MT. His family has a long history as a passionate advocate for beef producers.
He currently serves on the Board of Directors of the Livestock Marketing Association and has served in a variety of leadership roles in beef producer organizations.
Angus Conversation Podcast link:
Episodes | Angus Journal
Websites:
www.lmaweb.com
www.vermillionranch.com
www.publicauctionyards.com
Joe Goggins is an auctioneer, livestock market owner, commercial cow-calf producer, yearling operator and seedstock producer near Billings, MT. His family has a long history as a passionate advocate for beef producers.
He currently serves on the Board of Directors of the Livestock Marketing Association and has served in a variety of leadership roles in beef producer organizations.
Angus Conversation Podcast link:
Episodes | Angus Journal
Websites:
www.lmaweb.com
www.vermillionranch.com
www.publicauctionyards.com
Thanks for joining us for episode 44 of practically ranching. I'm Matt Perrier. Like always practically ranching is made possible by Dale banks, Angus. Make plans to attend our annual bull sale. Saturday, November 18th, Northwest of Eureka, Kansas. You can go to Dale banks.com for more information or to request catalog. As we have said before. Uh, this podcasts name has a couple of different meanings. Some episodes may surround a topic or a guest that, uh, offers an application that can be practically applied at the ranch level. Other times we're a little more philosophical in nature. I E we're not quite ranching. We're practically ranching. This episode is likely the latter. Joe Goggins is a practical cattlemen and he manages many different businesses throughout the cattle industry. But we're not going to cover many of those tactical practical management types of pieces in Joe's life today. This discussion is about the broader industry. And it's one that is starting here and needs to continue. In my opinion. Now, if you would've told me a couple years back that Joe Goggins and I would be on a podcast together. I would have gotten quite a chuckle and he probably would have too. If you would have told me that we were going to do two within a year. I would have laughed. And if you would have told me that both of them were going to be. Very civil. Almost agreeable types of discussions. I probably would've fallen on the floor. Laughing. I had worked at bull sailor too with Joe 20 years ago, when I worked for the Angus association. But I never really got a chance to visit with him until about a year ago. At the national Angus convention, it was in salt lake city and we got to serve. On a panel discussion there at the convention and then a podcast that was immediately following. And I included actually. A link to that Angus podcast in the show notes today. But it was there in the salt lake. When I realized that this guy who I thought saw the industry from a totally different viewpoint than I shared a lot more in common than I realized. Joe and I hadn't talked again since we were together there last November. But I thought it was worth visiting on this podcast. Again, he's now on the board of the livestock marketing association. And over the last year or so. LMA has focused on the change that we're seeing within the cow calf and yearling stocker producers segments. And what the future holds for this structure of what I would call a grass type folks in our industry. And we're going to cover that a lot here today. like I mentioned, Joe's family and mine have viewed some of the big lightning rod type issues within the beef industry. Through different lenses over the last 30 years. Very different lenses. And because of this. We, and quite often the organizations with whom we've been involved, haven't discussed many of the common ground issues that we have, largely because we weren't even in the same room at the same convention. Joe believes. And I do too, that it's high time that we figure out a way to unify. Now did we find the ideal solution for this on this podcast? Not really. But at least we talked about it. Which in my opinion is a huge step in the right direction. I think conversations like this one. We're the main impetus for practically ranching 18 months ago when we created it. These types of discussions, aren't easy. And sometimes they're not very concrete. But as Joe says, they're conversations that we have to have. So enjoy this conversation with Joe Goggins and thanks again for listening to practically ranching.
Track 1:why don't you say something a little bit more. I'll test our why audio levels and then we'll be rolling.
joe-goggins_1_10-02-2023_130111:1, 2, 1, 2. 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2. Test. One, two.
Track 1:You act like you've tested a microphone before there, Colonel Goggins. How many thousands of times would you have done this
joe-goggins_1_10-02-2023_130111:oh. Quite a few. Quite a few.
Track 1:Well, how many podcasts have you done?
joe-goggins_1_10-02-2023_130111:not very many.
Track 1:Alright.
joe-goggins_1_10-02-2023_130111:The only podcast I've ever done is the one you and I did at the convention last year.
Track 1:okay. Yeah, with
joe-goggins_1_10-02-2023_130111:one I've ever sat in a, yep.
Track 1:that one was fun. So we'll try to make this one equally. So, you said that your your techie son-in-law helped get you set up here on your AirPods and everything else. Is this Corey?
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:Yes.
Track 1:Yes. I'm glad that a native Kansan could come and help you Montanans out.
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:Yeah. Well, he helps us a lot in that respect, but
Track 1:Well,
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:brag on him too much, especially'cause he is not standing here anymore, but
Track 1:that's good. Any of our Kansas State football fans that would've been paying attention 15 years ago, may have known him as our wide receiver or was on the team at least as a wide receiver, Cory Schultz. And I know you've got a great story about how and Kayleen met, but I'll let you tell that one maybe to friends off the air
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:yeah, there you go. Yeah.
Track 1:Well, that's good. That's good. Well, glad that we could export or you import a Canson into Montana and help you out,
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:yeah. I always tell him, you you, you don't get to pick your son-in-laws. You just get'em
Track 1:Did did you learn that from your father when Roger Jacobs came into the mix or
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:yeah. That's, yeah. Yeah. It's been said more than once.
Track 1:That's That's good. Well, you've got quite a family there and whether they're blood relatives are married into it, it's it's a great story and I know so many in the beef industry know somebody within your family. If not you, I'm sure, know the name plenty. So, appreciate you being on here today. You had asked there right before I hit record how the weather was, and it's hot. Joe, I don't know if the cold front has come down through you yet. I see you've got a sweatshirt or a sweater on, so maybe it has, but we're gonna be in the nineties today and tomorrow, and then they're talking about highs of upper sixties or seventies by this Thursday, Friday, Saturday. So it'll change here pretty quick.
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:It, we got the feel of fall up here and it's nice. It's yeah. We've had, in fact, we've had some dustings of snow up on some of these mountain deals, and it's no. It's got the feel of fall and it needs to have the feel of all
Track 1:Yeah. It's time. It's time especially, um, yeah when we're 90 some degrees in the, in October it's a little much. And as you know, all too well, it's, we've got what you all had there a year to two or three years ago in terms of lack of rainfall and everything else. But it'll change. It'll change.
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:right.
Track 1:So I know that probably everybody listening to this podcast knows the Goggins name and knows your involvement at some level within the industry. Give us a feel all the different, um, segments and sectors of the beef industry that you're involved in and just kind of your street cred to let us know, um, where you're coming from on a daily basis and the points that you touch.
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:Yeah. Well, we kind of grew up in the uh, registered Angus business with the Vermilion Ranch. But along with that uh, uh, have also grown up in the livestock auction market business and grew up around both segments from the well your first memory. And so we no. We we were very involved within the seed stock industry. We, our family breeds a couple thousand registered uh, Angus cows every year. We calve fall and spring, and then we market about 12 to 1400 bulls every year. We background a lot of cattle. We probably background anywheres from 25 to 40,000 head of calves each and every year. We develop about 10,000 replacement heifer calves for four replacement heifers uh, each and every year. And uh, along with that as the years developed and kind of grew into the video marketing business, we do own, our family owns the Northern livestock video auction. And uh, so, so we uh, we help market a lot of calves, a lot of yearlings, a lot of of this and that on a daily basis. And uh, we, we've been very blessed to be very diversified within this industry. And and I kind of see it from all angles about every day.
Track 1:Well, that's for sure. And And that's a nice thing when you climb on an auction block and, and start talking to commercial cow calf producers or registered Angus producers or whoever it may be, anybody that has been to one of your sales knows that, you know, a little something about all pieces of, industry and, and when there is real value, and I remember, gosh, it's been about two years ago right now, I. Just before you and I got on, I was working on our Bull Sail catalog, putting it together, and we took pictures this morning and you're a week behind me on, I think you're the Saturday after Thanksgiving, right? We're the Saturday before. So, um, you know, the drill, but I was working on that catalog two years ago and I happened to turn on the internet or the TV or something and sits were having their female sale. And you were just starting your presale comments and you mentioned there, and of course we all know what the fall of 21 was like in terms of prices and you all were in the throes of drought. And, And it was starting, I think down here, and we didn't even realize it yet, but you used the term fireworks, which I've heard you used before and, and since then. But you said folks. We're gonna sell cattle in the next couple years higher than we ever. And I think you stopped prior to saying we ever have, but you said we ever have imagined. And so I'm right in the midst of putting our catalog together. I still needed to write the infamous presale letter that's inside
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:Mm-hmm.
Track 1:I always fret and stew over. And I'm not sure that anybody ever reads. And I put that and I didn't. I didn't quote you'cause I didn't want to throw you under the bus in case the wheels fell off and it didn't do what you thought and what I thought and were really anybody that was paying attention thought from a supply standpoint. But I put that in there and I just said a well-known, I think livestock marketer is what I called you or something. And I had a customer, actually, he's not a customer, he's a friend of ours. Call me on it and this gentleman, and I don't necessarily always. See the industry from the same way. We may not belong to the same industry organizations, but he said, I wanna know just who thought we were gonna sell cattle in the next year or two. Higher than we ever thought we ever thought possible, or ever imagined, whatever it was you said. And I said, Joe Goggins, there's just silence on the other line. And he said, well, I guess we'll see. And I'm sure he was thinking I was gonna say cattle facts or somebody with certified Angus beef or N C B A or whomever it was. And once he heard the source, he thought, well, maybe it's possible. So he trusted you. And guess what? We have, um, it's been strong. It's been good. And, And, um, probably long overdue
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:I, uh, I, I think it's I think we all kind of had the feeling it was gonna get awful good. And, And to be real honest, this thing got, I. Good. Really fast. It, It got it, it got a lot better than I thought it would. Quicker. I mean, it's I still think if we can keep the government outta some things and keep a few of these Black Swan event things from happening uh, I, I, I still honestly think uh, our best days are ahead of us. I, I mean, I still think next year is the year probably, or the following, especially on these bread cattle and but we do not see uh, this cow herd building it. When you look at these cow, the cow kill receipts, and then the amount of these cows coming to town still, it's it's remarkable to me that we aren't in a herd rebuild yet. And and I think it'll be as a lot slower rebuild than we've seen in years past. Just a lot due just to input costs. I mean, when you look at interest, when you look at uh, uh, the cost of fertilizer, the cost of these bailers, the cost of these swat, there's just the cost of doing business and keeping one of these ranches running. I just, I honestly think the rebuild on this cow herd this time will be quite a bit slower than we've seen before.
Track 1:Yeah, I would agree. And I think that a prolonged drought or maybe that drought moving from the north to the south, southeast, um, like it has, I think that has an effect too. But, you know, we harken back to 20, late 20 13, 20 14, when we saw a similar run up in prices. And, And the first time that a lot of us had ever seen anything like that, or first time any of us had, had seen$3 calves in some of these things. And at that time, as you said, our inputs weren't quite what they are today. And I think a lot of farmers and ranchers would walk away from the livestock market or the sale barn or the stockyards or the pack and plant or wherever they'd gotten paid and almost feel guilty for selling cattle as high as what we did. fast forward to today, and a lot of folks are going, yeah, it's really good, but doggone it, it needed to be good. You know, there's bills to pay. There's a lot of stuff that, that is looming out there that, um, it, it needed to be this strong. And as a result, yeah, we're not seeing people, not only are we not seeing'em expand, but I've even heard of a lot of folks in the last year or so who knew this thing was gonna get pretty good, who at the time anyway. And some of'em still do, had water, had feed, had hay, whatever the case may be. And still said, you know what, it's not worth it. It's too much work to have cows. I'm going to turn to 90 day yearlings, or I'm gonna terminate the last little bit of ground that I can farm and, and we're gonna plant beans and corn. Uh, You know, there's a lot of other competitive sources of income and ownership and whatever the case may be besides cattle. And it used to be that people didn't even think about it. You know, there's just gonna be lean times, we're gonna get through'em. And I think that we as an industry and participants within our industry may be, I don't know if we've got a sharper pencil, if we're just lazier. I don't know what the case may be, but I think it takes more to start herd rebuilds and re have a retention and things like this than it used to. Do you see that? Or
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:No, I definitely see it, and it I spoke to a group of cattlemen here the other night and I said you know, we're all about half giddy right now with the way the market is. And we're all very pleased. And, And it's better than all of us thought it could be. But I, I, I really think the worst thing we can do as an industry right now is, is apologize for what we're getting for these cattle because uh, It's just a good thing we are, because there'd be a lot less of us come next spring, this fall if these cattle weren't bringing this right now. And it and I see, and I think that's why, as you say, we haven't seen a rebuild. We, We don't feel the rebuild. It takes more than, it's just, it's a tough way to make a living right now. And, And to be honest I, I sit on the board of the Livestock Marketing Association and those of us that are livestock, auction market owners here in the United States are, we're really concerned about it. And uh, it, it, it's, it's a, it's at the top of our priority list right now as far as things to uh, to a look at because uh, uh, you look at the amount of producers, you look at the amount of producers that we're losing. Out of these auction markets, and I don't care if it's in your part of the world, if it's on the east coast, the south the west, or up in our part of the world. You talk to an auction market owner anywhere in, in any region of the United States right now, and we're losing producers and we're losing them pretty fast. And I just look at our own uh, situation here. Last fall in our uh, we have two big stock cow sales, the blue ribbon and the Northland stock Cow sales we have in Billings. One week in December, we'll sell somewhere between 10 and 15,000 cows bred females each, each, each year and have for a lot of years. And never once in those, all of those years since I was a young kid till now, do I ever remember in that week of selling stock cows that we'd have more than three to four at the most complete and total dispersals. And last fall we had 15. And we'd have, and we've had 10 since and we've got more on the books for this fall than we had last fall. And the market's this good, but these people are aging out. They see a time, a pretty good exit right now. And uh, uh, I, I think uh, I, I just think it's something that, that. All of us within this industry need to to start a conversation about and look at and why are we losing these people? And I think it's plain and simple. There's just not enough consistent margin over a 10 to 20 year timeframe. There's not enough consistent margin. In this game you look at the amount of thousands and thousands of acres that we continue to lose outta livestock production, whether it be beef or lamb, to things like uh, uh, urban development to things like recreation, to things like uh, fish wildlife and park conservation easement type deals, American prairie reserve type situations. But, But we're losing land and we're losing lots of it. And I just, that's no good for an auction market owner. That's no good for anybody that owns a business along Main Street America, that's no good for breed associations. That's no good for, there's a lot of things that, that we have to have producers and we have to have these mid-range and smaller producers if we're gonna keep rural America uh, thriving and, and alive.
Track 1:Yeah, and it's those mid-range and smaller producers that, at least in this region, it sounds like up your way as well, are are the ones. we all worry about consolidation at the Packer processor level or at the retail level, or even at the feed yard level sometimes. The consolidation that I think we're in the midst of at the commercial cow calf level is we've never seen it in the past. I I honestly believe that we're gonna see more consolidation in this turn of the cattle cycle at the cow calf level uh, than we ever have. And I guess now I've probably led you already, but those extra 10 or 15 cata dispersals that you saw last fall and that are coming on the books for this, this fall and winter, what's that land doing going into the future? Do you know? Are those folks
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:Yeah
Track 1:cattle, or what?
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:I think there's a little bit of both. There's some of these guys that have nobody to uh, some of this land is selling. Some of it's going into situations like American Prairie Reserve, at least in our part of the world. A lot of this land they're aged out. They're tired of Kevin and they're gonna maybe run yearlings. And and some of it is just, they're selling it and it's going into uh, uh, a lot of this land that up here on these dispersions is going into uh, A big money corporate type situations where they turn it into a recreation hunting type deal and, and might keep it in a little bit of production, but nothing like it's capable of. And you lose all that tax base, you lose all that. Uh, we, We just lose a lot of land out of food production and I think all of us have got, we'd better start educating these policy makers back there in DC the importance of food. The importance of of preserving our food independence. And one way we're gonna do that is, is we've gotta keep this land and food production, we've gotta incentivize people into leaving this land and food production, whether it be especially livestock production is in my mind as far as beef and lamb. And I think there's ways of doing that. I think there's ways of of incentivizing people through tax credits and, and tax breaks and and so forth going forward. But it, I I, I really think uh, uh, to me the days uh, uh, of taking on the packers that the days of, of taking on these big corporate feeders and, and, and thinking we're gonna get some fairness and this and that at that level. For those of us that are independent people uh, I, I, I, think it's a loser. I think it uh, I look back at our situation and I mean, my father uh, he took that fight on for his Pretty much his whole adult life. I, I've took it on for most of my adult life, and I'll be honest, man, I'm tired of losing uh, in the situation we're in now. We need them just as bad as they need us. And why I, I think we, as an industry, I don't care if it's uh, N C B A uh, our calf, US Cattlemen, farm Bureau, farmers' Union, I don't care what industry group you belong to, but we had better unify. We had better come up with some things that we can agree upon that'll, that will increase margin and incentivize these young people into wanting to do this. And we better come up with some ideas and try to incentivize these people into leaving this land in livestock production. If we don't do that if, if we can't come together as an industry, all these groups, and unify around those two ideas in my mind, then we're gonna lose and we're gonna lose bad. And I'm really afraid we could lose our food independence in this country. And if we lose our food independence in this country, we're no longer a superpower. And I think it's of dire straits that we come together as an industry. I know uh, I'm not against people, keeping people accountable in different groups, keeping different groups accountable, but in my mind, this isn't the time for that. This is the time to unify. We have got to come together as an industry and have a conversation about how can we increase margin on a consistent basis. How can we incentivize these young people into uh, uh, wanting to uh, not only wanna do this, but be able to do this? Along with that, how do we incentivize people into leaving their land in in livestock production?
Track 1:Well, that unification is, is important. It's critical. I mean, depending on whose data you read, we're ag producers, farmers, ranchers, everybody, or somewhere between one point a half and 2% of the entire population of the US and we feed the other 98 or 99 plus everybody across the world that we export to. And so we're already in the vast minority. When we segment ourselves because of a couple marketing issues or Whatever the case may be. Um, yeah, it just fractures us even more. And, and, and that's as critical as that is you use the independent word, and that is a blessing and a curse amongst livestock producers. We are fiercely independent. all you have to do is watch Yellowstone or read the W L J or anybody else to find out whether it's fiction or nonfiction. The truth is we pride ourselves on that independence. And so that right there is part of an issue going forth when we start talking about unifying around even a two or three issues that we think should be fairly innocuous and fairly agreeable amongst us all. There's always somebody that says, oh no, no, I don't, I don't. At all. See eye to eye on that. And, and, And it's tough. It, it, It makes it extremely difficult as we try to pull those organizations to, and there's territorial battles. I mean, I'll, full disclosure, you know, I grew up in Kansas in a very market-driven, value-based household. And our belief was that things like grid marketing and, you know, um, producer ownership of Packer processors and some of these kind of out there thoughts was actually a good thing of,, uh, and I, I believe that it has been. Now we've, if we get time here on the podcast, we'll talk a little more. I've talked about it in two or three podcasts since we started over the last year and a half. But, you know, that has caused some issues too. Uh, Price discovery of fed cattle and things like that, being one of'em. But any, any time we get a group of producers together, There's gonna be two main things that we talk about the weather and the markets. And right now there are very few people who are gonna throw a rock and say, boy this, this market is broke. We gotta, We gotta fix this because we're, you know, dollar 80 ish fed cattle knocking on the door. I think at some point of$2 per pound cattle out of outta the feed yards. there's a lot of people that are nodding their heads saying, yeah, this market is exactly like it should be. This is the time to talk about what do we need to fix in terms of price discovery, in terms of, um, you know, incentives to keep people farming, ranching the land. but nobody wants to talk about it because you know, nobody's, nobody's uh, looking for reason to blame somebody. So it, I don't know how we start those conversations. I know you've been part of several of them, and maybe you've got some ideas, not just how we start the conversations, but what are some fixes? You've been kind of on a listening tour with l m a and, and over the last year or so. What, What do you see a path forward?
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:You, you know, uh, uh, the l m a and it is something that I think those of us that were involved with it are so proud that, that, that we were a part of. It was a few years ago we had the uh, industry roundtable meeting with all of the different industry groups and uh, but was not it was the next thing to impossible to get that thing pulled off, get everybody in the same room. And we had it with the basically there are four different members of, of each organization. No staff was involved and just got in there and had a conversation. And there were a lot of things come outta that meeting uh, that, that were very productive. I mean, the contract library basically come out of that meeting. The several of these other ideas that we've got moved through legislatively. Uh, Uh, Here within the last year came out of that round table meeting and it it's going to, we were wanting to have another one. I say we, the L m A, and it looks to me like it's gonna be rather difficult to get that thing pulled off again. It just there's just a lot of diversity and a lot of uh, uh, divisiveness between these organizations. And, we, we got talking amongst ourselves uh, uh, within our board of the L m A and, and how do we unify uh, we, we so believe the importance of this uh, idea of unification and making these grassroots people become proactive a and start a conversation themselves and not always count on these staffs to go do it, of these different organizations and these different boards and this and that. This is situation where we as producers we, those of us that have a lot of skin in the game it's time to become proactive. I know we get busy at home and we get uh, uh, doing things and we get thinking somebody else is gonna do it for us. And I'm gonna tell you right now, there's nobody gonna do it for us. We, we had better come together and become proactive. But I the two words that I really like to use, and this whole idea, is the idea of unification and the idea of becoming proactive. And uh, uh, we as an organization we, we got proactive. We had five uh, focus group meetings uh, that we had uh, one in Montgomery, Alabama, one, I believe you were a part of that. We were so glad you were uh, there in uh, Kansas. We had another one in Missouri. We had one in one in Billings, Montana. And we held two same day uh, in uh, California. And these different auction market owners are at different regions. Invited uh, producers, 15, some very, very uh, uh, successful. Some were uh, uh, younger people that were probably struggling, but uh, were, were in uh, uh, these people's mind that they were forward-thinking uh, such as you we're so glad you could make it to that deal and, and have your input. And I'd like your perspective of the, of what you thought of that meeting, but it we got some real valuable information and, and uh, uh, basically our, at least the meetings I uh, attended, the one in Billings and the ones in California. Basically it was just a conversation as how can we create. How can we create some incentive for young people to wanna be able to do this? How can we create some incentive for people to leave this land in livestock production? How do we preserve the guy that has from 500 cows to 20 cows and give them incentive to do this? And some of the ideas we got out of that when you really look at all of the different information we got outta each meeting was I think some of the fixes and the conversations we need to have are around the idea of this death tax. And and the estate planning. And the estate tax as far as, because we're, right now we're in a time where a lot of us within agriculture are not affected by the inheritance tax because you got a 13 point a half million dollars exemption per person uh, for a couple. So you've got near$26 million worth of exemption. That's, it's a good high ceiling. But in 2025, that debt ceiling's gonna uh, sunset out. And it looks to me like it could go down to maybe two and a half million per person. 5 million is what they want. And, And I can, you can feel it. They want it less than that. We get that deal down where it's at five, 6 million between the two couples. Then that involves a whole bunch of people that'll wipe out some of these producers within the production agriculture. And it'll be no good for rural America. It'll be no good for any of us. And uh, uh, those are some things we need to make sure we, we, we keep our, the eye on the ball there. And uh, uh, in, in my mind, I think uh, from these meetings uh, If, if you transfer your land to the next generation and that generation agrees to leave that land in livestock production for say, 20 years, then they'd have, they'd, in my mind, we should have no inheritance tax for that kind of a situation, especially if, if uh, a certain percentage of your, your or family income, gross annual income comes from production agriculture, say 70% or so of your gross annual income comes from production agriculture and you qualify for a setting like this, and you'd agree to leave that land as a young person inheriting it in uh, livestock production. Then you shouldn't have to pay any inheritance tax. Say you're a uh, up in your years and you have nobody to transfer that land to within your, and make it generational and you, and basically decide to sell that land. Well, if you sell that land to somebody and they decide to same kind of a deal, sign off on the same kind of a scenario, we'll leave this land in livestock production, well then they get a huge tax breaks for the years to come. And the seller themselves, maybe they don't have to pay any capital gains tax or something, give them an incentive to where they don't have to sell it at a recreational type value and keep this land in, in production agriculture. I just, I think those are some things that, that I think from all of us within this industry, and I mean all of us, I mean from the grassroots cow, calf man, yearling operator to the feeder, to the packer, I think we can all get on the same team on, on conversations like this and, and, and unify and try to to get some real movement. And create some some stability and some incentive for these young people to stay in this because uh, at the end Of the. day I think it's real obvious, we as cow calf people, we as yearling people, we need that corporate feeder and, and packer just as bad as they need us. And these are, this is a situation where I think we can get on the same team. I mean, I think if we can prove to these uh, folks at, at, at the higher end of the food chain here, the packer, the the corporate feeder. If we can prove to them that we're not gonna throw darts at'em on this one, we're not gonna sue you on this one. We need your, We need your help. And, And uh, uh, we need to unify. I just I, I, I so hope that we as an industry can come together on a few ideas like this to uh, uh, move forward with and incentivize people into wanting to stay in uh, protein production.
Track 1:Yeah, I would, I would think that the whole death tax issue would be pretty agreeable amongst everybody that you've talked with in the production segment. And, And it, I haven't heard anybody that, that wouldn't be in favor of doing something on that. And hopefully, yeah, I mean, it, it needs to be addressed. Um, that goes back to that 2% versus 98%. I just had a podcast, two or three back with Tucker Stewart, who is a staffer for our Kansas senator there in dc and he said, that's every time we talk about a rural issue versus an urban one, we don't have the votes. And so we have to make sure that we educate and we talk to those urban legislators and, and others uh, and, and like you said, get our industries together and behind us on something like that, that, that seems like a Pretty easy decision, I would think, but it not always is
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:You you bring up the word educate and I think of it every day. We had a meeting in California, a focus group meeting o over the same topic. And the second meeting we had that day it only involved eight or 10 producers that were there. But two of those producers were were rather large dairymen. Uh, One of'em was was one of the lead lobbyists for the dairy industry uh, outta California for, in DC and we couldn't get'em off topic. They didn't want to talk about anything but this one thing. And it was how we as the beef industry tell our story. And uh, he uh, he just wouldn't get off topic, he says. For the last 70 years, he says the beef industry has done an absolute horrible job of telling their story, of educating these policymakers on why they deserve some of these perks. He says, you really, he says, in my mind, you don't need to educate the people within your industry. They know. He says, the people you need to educate, number one is you gotta go back to DC and educate these people that make policy for you, and you have to educate them and then convince them on why you deserve some of these perks, why you deserve some of these uh, different kinds of policy to make your thing right. But he says, right now the beef industry goes back to DC and you walk into these offices and you have 32 different asks, he says, by the end of the deal, they don't know which direction to go. And I think he's really right. I I, I've thought about it every day since we, we've been there. I mean, to get some of these things that we're gonna wanna get through and become proactive is, I think that's the importance of this idea of unification is to go back there with one voice, with one, one ass, two ass and educate these people on the importance of of preserving this food independence in this country.
Track 1:So million dollar question, no billion dollar question. Um, it's sure more than that, two and a half million dollar level that we just talked about. How do you do it? Does the Livestock Marketing Association want to be the organization of the beef industry going forth? Who? Who carries this message?
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:I think the, i, our idea. I say R the LMAs idea. And I think it's a it's a, this has gotta be a grassroots movement. This has gotta, most all of this policy, the best policy that that finally turns into law is policy that comes, that originates from the bottom up. It's gotta start at these grassroots local uh, uh, industry group meetings. They've gotta go to their state affiliates, they've gotta go to their state uh, conventions. Create some policy at that level. Go to the national level. I don't care if it's at the Farm Bureau, farmer's Union, N C B A R, calf whatever, us cattlemen, whatever that is. But go to the smaller state affiliates have gotta go to these national conventions, unify as a group and make this number one. On their ask list. And I guess our hope is we put out a, we put out an a one page letter that, that that we sent to all of our auction market owners in in our membership. And, And L m A represents about 800 and some uh, member market businesses here in the United States and Canada. And I know uh, basically it, it's, it's just explaining what you and I have just talked about on these focus groups and, and, and the idea of taking on these tax issues uh, and the inheritance tax. And, And somehow this is where a lot of people will get their ears up and say that but one of the things that we did get out of this uh, those focus groups as well, is there was a several regions that that, that really See the need to try to get this land that we use for uh, whether it be grassland, whether it be land that we use to grow roughage somehow, we gotta get on an equal playing surface. We gotta get on a fair playing surface to where we can compete for this ground that, that grows roughage. I mean, you look at these grain growers right now they can afford to give three to$500 an acre on a cash lease. Those of us in, in, in the uh, rough uh, the protein business, the cattle business, when, if we go to try to rent that same piece of ground to grow some hay, grow some silage, just a roughage, we can afford to give maybe 50 to a hundred dollars an acre. Somehow we, as we as livestock, people have got to get on an equal playing field, a fair playing field with these folks to compete for that ground to grow roughage. And I don't know if that's government intervention. I don't know if that's uh, I, I, I really don't know what it is, but somehow, some way we've gotta get on an equal playing field to where we can compete to grow this roughage on an equal plane. Uh, I mean, for some reason, and I don't know what it is, Matt, but some young kid, 25, 30 years old can go into that bank and he can go to that officer and he, that, that loan officer and say, I wanna buy a green tractor and I want to go rent a quarter or half section of land and I'm gonna grow some beans, or I'm gonna grow some corn. And he gets a pretty easy time of getting it done. That same young man goes into that bank and that loan officer says, I wanna buy two loads of bread heifers and I wanna lease this piece of grass over here. It's next thing to impossible to get that done. Now somehow we gotta get these young people to where they're on an equal plane surface to be able to compete for that ground and have some backup. If, If it is that, and I know I don't like it any better than you like it. But somehow some way we've gotta get on an equal playing field. And these, those are the kinds of things that we have put into these uh, uh, this one page uh, uh, letter that we've sent out. And basically we're asking all of our auction market owners to fold them up and send them out in their consignors checks as they send them out. And hopefully those consignors will read this, become proactive. Uh, Go to their local uh, uh, state affiliate uh, groups whatever it might be and go to those state conventions and create some policy that we can all get around because it's this is a time where these cow calf states, these pe, these states that run lots of yearlings, these states that have a lot of grass. We have got to come we've got to come together and create some policy at that national level to to promote keeping this cow calf business thriving because uh, we're seeing so many people leave the Mama cow and, and think they're gonna just run airlands. Well, pretty soon the Erland thing's not gonna be near as attractive. I, I don't think there's ever been a time in my lifetime. It's been more attractive to have some red females around you right now than right now, because I just, it's gonna the cow herd rebuild is gonna be slower than any of us have ever seen, I think, in this, in this next turn. And it's gonna be attractive, but it somehow, some way we've gotta keep these mama cows on the grass. We've gotta keep people wanting to do this, but we've gotta keep the smaller people doing it. Uh, uh, we, We just continue to as a nation, it's just not this industry, it's this nation. We just continue to promote this idea of vertical integration. And for some people it's great. For the big boys, it's great, but for rural America for Main Street, rural America, it's a horrible business model. We've, We've got to incentivize the smaller producer to stick around.
Track 1:Yeah. And that's, that's something that you and I talked about on that Angus podcast a year ago now, almost. And, And, you know, we talked about vertical integration and maybe the only defense against it is this idea of vertical coordination or cooperation and, and making sure that we pass information and signals and value and everything else back amongst, through that. So one person or one entity, one segment, doesn't own everybody. I'm going to, I'm gonna put on, and I'm not an ag economist, but every ag economist that's listening to this I know is yelling at the truck radio that markets will work this out. even you mentioned earlier in this podcast that if we can keep the government out of things, hopefully we can keep this market together. And in other words, I think what you were indicating was, don't crash this economy and kill our demand for our product. And this beef market should be pretty strong for quite a long time. Every time I have seen the government come in and try to quote unquote fix an issue in the short term, I think they've created more unintended consequences in long term. And, And that's what I think a lot of folks, again, I use the AG economists and some of these, you know, market driven folks are saying that part of the reason that those folks can go out and lend or borrow that money is because of the crop insurance program. And we can have a three hour podcast on here about whether the crop insurance program and now L R P and, and the drought programs and pasture and rainfall, forage protection, all these different, what I'd call government programs. Disguised as insurance or vice versa, whether those are good or bad for producers, I think that is helping level the playing field for folks that are paying attention. But it is what it is and it is Uncle Sam getting into our business. And I grew up in a time where we were proud at the Kansas Livestock Association meeting or N C A or and N C B A to say that by gosh, we'll let the farmers farm for the government. We don't want'em in our business. Well, guess what? They are right smack dab in our business and probably going to be more so and, and maybe that's how you level the playing field.
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:I couldn't agree more with you on all of what you've just said, and every time I bring up the every time we even talk about as cowboys wanting to uh, get on an equal playing field and how do we do this? And, And it looks to me like you've, gotta somehow probably get some government intervention. And I, and every time we talk about it, I want to go home and take a shower. I mean, do none of us like it? I mean, it's, do we want it? No, but I, I think uh, I think those of us that are trying to come up with some real common sense, like ways to to help the situation, to incentivize people into wanting to do this I don't think we can just say, just come out and say, we don't want any government intervention. It's a stupid idea. It's a terrible idea. Every time they get involved, it's, you get more unintended consequences than, than the, all of these different things. Yeah, great. I don't want it either, but if you don't want it, then come up with something different. And I haven't been able to come up with anything different. And I look up at the clouds every time we talk about things like this, because my father would be so against this early on in his days, absolutely didn't want no government intervention. But I do think when you look back at, at people in, in our folks' uh, generation, our grandparents generation, that really made something for themselves and their families and left a real legacy. All of those people within that generation adapted to change. They embraced change. They absolutely were not afraid of change. And those of us in the cattle business right now, especially they got a little gray over their ears are plums, scared to death talking about any government intervention. We don't want it. We don't, but it's changed and, and. Somehow some way we've got to be able to compete. And I just go back to that same scenario with that same young guy. Why can they, why are they financed so much easier on a green tractor and farm ground than if you want to go buy two loads of bread heifers and buy some, or lease some grassland? It's because they got a backup. It's because if it dries out they're based over a five year production average or so forth, something like that I'm not saying we or they are entitled to anything, but they do have a backup. And I guess the way I look at this whole thing, Matt, is if the world, if this country, if our consumers, if our citizenship here have summoned us, that, that are on the land and they want us to grow the highest quality, safest food product there is in the world. We're not asking to get rich, but we are asking to to live better than the poverty line and, and, and fight this thing. And,, that's the part I think we all agree on. All of us within this industry c can agree on, on some tax incentives and, and, taking on this inheritance tax and death tax situation. I, I think we're all in agreeance on that. The one thing that uh, we uh, will, we'll raise some eyebrows and you'll, it'll cause some arguments and it'll cause some conversation. And it's a conversation in my mind we have to have is just what we've been talking about here, is how do we get on an equal playing field those of us within the livestock business, that, that sell grass that, that grow roughage, how do we get on an equal playing field to where we can compete for this acreage in this ground with the farming sector? And I don't think we need an upper hand, but we need to be on a fair playing field. And uh, how, how do we do that?
Track 1:I don't have the answer. I definitely don't, and it's not going to come easily. But I do think, I do agree that discussion needs to take place and it has to take place because as you said, it's not just, I mean, we're picking on the farmers right now, but it's not just the farmers. It's these conservation programs. It's, um, money from outside of agriculture coming in, buying a hunting place and never grazing a ruminant on it again putting it into conservation easements for perpetuity that don't allow grazing. And there is a difference. There are some of'em that encourage actually ag production and grazing, but I don't have the answer. Let's say, Let's say that we figure it out, let's say we develop this program going forth that levels the playing field, however that might be possible with everybody else that's competing to buy an acre of ground. How do you, and this is gonna be, this is gonna hit a little close to home. Some would say it hits a little close to home for me too, because my family's probably as guilty, maybe not quite as guilty as yours. But how do you defend the fact that you're running thousands of cows instead of dozens registered cows? You're buying tens of thousands of yearlings instead of a pot load. you're selling through several markets plus videos instead of just one. All of those were owned by somebody else that clearly didn't do it as efficiently as you and your family, and didn't market those cattle as well as you and your family, or maybe didn't produce bulls as well, or whatever the case may be. That's been capitalism for over 200 years in the United States of America. The market rewards, those who do it more efficiently are willing to take the risks, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. How do we as producers that are, whether we're slightly bigger than average or a lot bigger than average, how do we say that that is still okay? That's what built this country and maintain the ability for folks to have that competitive advantage when they do things better than maybe their neighbor did and end up owning their neighbor's property
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:Yeah I, I, it's something we wrestle with all the time because it's if you look back 20 years ago, even 10, 15 years ago in our own situation we were forced to get bigger. Families grew the you wanna keep everybody within the family as much as evolved as you can and no uh, and, and really to run one of these ranches anymore and have more than you and your wife and maybe one hired man you gotta run quite a few. Th they have forced us to get bigger 20 years ago, I'm not so sure we weren't making more money with less than we are, but they have forced us. We're just handling more money. And but they forced us to get bigger. And we've had the opportunity to uh, uh, vertically integrate and, and, to be honest, we, our family has chosen not to. And mainly because we own these auction markets and it's so against what we were taught uh, growing up really the folks that, that pay our bills. The folks that basically uh, butter, our bread are the smaller producers. I mean, at these auction markets we sell a lot of cattle for the big producers, but we sell all the cattle for the small producers for these bulls that we sell and our seed stock operations. Sure, we sell some bulls to some big operations, but we sell the bulk of our bulls. To these small family operations and those are the ones that we wanna cater to. Those are the ones that we wanna go to bat for and fight for. And sure there's some of these bigger operations. But really uh, if we continue to lose these, these 20 head cow herds to 500 head cow herds, even up to a thousand head cow herds. Those are family Generational. type situations. And those are the people that that butter your bread. They butter ours. They, They keep the uh, auction markets in business. They keep the ACE hardware in business. They keep the American Angus Association, American Herford Association in Business. And if we continue to to lose these folks, And continue to cater to uh, uh, this idea of vertical integration, the big, getting bigger. I don't think you're gonna stop that altogether. And, And I don't think you should, like you say uh, uh, capitalism free enterprise, the American way. I mean, we don't need to stop that, but we sure, we sure don't need to, to, to get in a situation where these people have these ranches and they can't keep'em generational. And I think that's something that we're losing in this country uh, not just at the egg level all over, but we're really seeing uh, seeing uh, uh, the family run outfits go by the wayside. And, And I think it's something uh, at least we as auction market owners, where we we have the great uh, one thing about being an auction market owner. We deal with all producers. I mean, we deal with the produ, the big ones, the small ones. We be, we deal with producers that belong to these different trade, organ and industry organizations. But we also deal with just about all of them that don't belong to any organization. And uh, we hear their concerns and uh, uh, we're losing them. And uh, we're, we're seeing it firsthand every week. It's sitting around one of these auctions and uh, uh, we just feel the real need to try to unify this industry. Are we, Are we wanting to become a membership organization? No, no, No. Not at all. But we do have the right to talk to these members of these different organizations because they pay our bills and we need'em around.
Track 1:Yeah, you asked me earlier for my feedback about the meeting that I got to go to that l m a put on there in, in Emporia and um, I got to take two of my kids, my second and third children with me that evening'cause teenagers and they went along and they were the youngest in the room, but Mark and Chelsea welcomed them and everybody else did as well. And coming home with them, the discussion that we had after them hearing the discussion that was held at that l m A meeting was one of the better, deeper Phil, more philosophical discussions I've ever had with my kids because of that. It was a great meeting, Joe. It was a hard meeting because obviously there were different perspectives, there were different ideas, there was nothing, you know, it was one of those. We don't have very many think tanks in the beef industry. If we do, it's at midnight to 1:00 AM and nobody's keeping notes. Um, but this was one of those think tank type of meetings. And um, and luckily Chelsea was keeping really good notes. Um,, and we heard heartfelt, passionate stories and reasons as to why something needed to change. And nobody necessarily agreed on anything, but they all brought something up and there wasn't, there wasn't one fight. There wasn't one, no, we can't do that. Um,, but it was, it was truly one of the better industry meetings I've been to. And I think the reason was, was just as you said, um, there weren't a lot of agendas. I think that you all as a L M A board thought going into it, you might hear. Support for this or that idea, or opposition to something else. And looking at some of the, the feedback that you got at, at several different regions, they were all a little different. Right? Um, but I don't know that there came, that, that anything came out of there that said, yeah, by all means this is the path that we go down. But it's gonna take more of those meetings. It's gonna take more of that. And I think I agree with you that you have every, right. Maybe some would even say to your membership, every responsibility to ask those types of questions because you said it. And that's why I was at the meeting, because those folks are my bread and butter. From a bull marketing standpoint and a production standpoint from a class two, a high school rural America that's trying to keep a school open and a community hospital open and all these services, it's not just the bottom line of Dale Banks Angus. It's whether Eureka Kansas lives or dies. And, um, and so yes, we have to address these things. I may come around to seeing that it has to involve the government and incentives. Um, I do think I, I, I think that there are some negative consequences because quite often when Uncle Sam gets involved, the whole free market and capitalism and free enterprise, and allowing those who wanna work hard and work smart and market well and. Take the steps that they need to take to successfully produce a product. Sometimes those aren't rewarded. I mean, all we have to do is look at the drought payments through the last 10 or 12 years. You know, my biggest gripe with those things are it rewards producers for overgrazing and for not responding and not thinking ahead and seeing something coming and selling down, or sending cows out of the area, or whatever the case may be. You're incentivized to keep your same herd numbers, whether you're getting your normal rainfall or 30% of your normal rainfall. And, And those types of programs, I don't think help us get better long term. They may help us patch some things up when that check comes in because we didn't sell cows or we didn't, you know, take precau or, you know, proactive measurements, but, That's the challenge. I think when we get the government in I, I may, like I said, I may come around, but um,
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:I
Track 1:I hope we can come up with something even better.
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:I do too. I, I uh, I really do.'cause I don't want to get the government involved. I don't I don't want any part of it, but I just don't know unless somebody can come up with something better. I just haven't heard. But I think the idea of just saying, no way, we ain't gonna do it. It's just, it's a stupid idea. Well, if it's a stupid idea and you're not gonna do it just for this and that, and just walk away from it that, that, that's not that, that's not, that's not helping. I it just real quick'cause we've been on here quite a while, but I will share a story that of the meeting we had in billing Montana and we had a real diverse group. We had some very successful, very prominent ranchers there as along with some, some, some younger people there that were, were struggling. And uh, we went around uh, the, there was 15 of us there and we ran around the table and everybody kind of voiced their opinion as far as all these different ideas that, like you and I have been talking about here today. And uh, uh, the idea of, of some government intervention. The idea of, of getting on a equal playing field for some of this ground and this and that. There were some of these real prominent, very conservative uh, uh, ranchers that were there that were just totally against it, like you and I would've been the first time we heard it. Just absolutely, we do not want the government involved. And we, we went through this for about two hours and finally this young lady was sitting over there, her and her husband, and they had a young family. And uh, uh, they leased with the option to buy their folks' place. And, And uh, she hadn't said one word in two hours. And I finally I, I asked her, I says, you know, you haven't said anything. What do you think of this idea of, of creating some equality or, or some fairness uh, trying to compete for this ground? And she says, you know, I'm just and I think of it, and it just gave me goosebumps because she was so sincere and so humble. And she says, you know, Mr. Goggin said there's a lot of people here that uh, uh, at this table that are very prominent, that are basically mentors to uh, uh, my husband, to, I we, we so look up to all of you folks. But she said, I know a lot of you're against some of these ideas, but I am telling you from my husband and I standpoint, this would really help. She says, we're poor. And she said it just like that. So humble, so sincere, we're poor. This would really help us. We both have college educations. We both could have went and done something else, but we chose to to come back to rural America, to come back to production agriculture. We thought it was a great place and it is a great place to raise our family and our kids, but we're struggling. And there's some ideas that you've brought up here today that some of you are very, very against that I, I'll be honest, would really, really help uh, my husband and I and if we all uh, if you'd have raised your hand, had the room, raised their hand, or if they were for or against something like this before she said that, I would've said 75% of that room would've raised their hand. We don't want it. We asked the question, who in this room would be for some form of at least a conversation about getting equal, a fair playing field uh, for those of us to compete for this land? 100% of the people put their hand up. And I just think
Track 1:just think
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:we don't live in a, the world's not fair and it's not equal. And some of the things we're gonna do are gonna have some probably bad consequences. But if we do nothing I just think we have to have this conversation. We have to come together and, and uh, uh, I mean, the one thing, and I I I told you this when we talked last that uh, about the industry Roundtable meeting we had and, and, and there's so much divisiveness within this industry. I, we go, I mean, uh, whether, I mean, there's, there's some of these groups that hate each other and but when you when you get in a room like we did back in Phoenix a few years ago, and at that industry group, and you start having the same kind of conversations that we're having right now when, when you really see our wants, I don't care which organization you're, you're affiliated with. Our differences are very, very small. We Basically all want the same thing. And uh, it's how we get there. is, Is how we go about it. But we as an industry have got to, to, to quit throwing rocks at each other on some of these things. We have got to come together. And for that matter, we as an in, as a, as a country, I mean, we become so divisive politics, through everything we got going on school boards. It doesn't matter. There's, There's uh, we've got to unify uh, I guess that's what we as auction market owners are. So we just wanna start a conversation. We just want are these exactly the issues we got? Is this one pager exactly what needs to be done? Probably not. But when you go to these meetings the, you need a template, you need a starting spot. I. And we really believe that we put in the due diligence with these focus groups to at least we got a template. We got some issues that I think we can agree upon and not waste a whole bunch of time when you get to a meeting trying to figure it out. And uh, I, I really do believe uh, I, I give our staff at the L m A and, and, and our, our organization, big kudos for, for uh, uh, we, we did the due diligence. We we went through the effort, the time, the expense uh, to try to get some, some real data, some real information that we, that we think we as an industry can unify around. Do we wanna carry the ball to the finish line? Absolutely not. I think that belongs to these membership organizations, these grassroots uh, organizations. And uh, uh, but somebody's gotta start the conversation. And to me, I'm not sure there's a better organization in the country right now to start that conversation than a bunch of auction market owners because we, we deal with them all. We, we, We deal with them on a, we have we have personal uh, relationships with a lot of these members and they all belong to different organizational groups. And hopefully we can start the conversation. Hopefully we can get some movement at these state affiliate levels to create some policy at these different national levels to where maybe this can be moved up to their number one priority instead of most, the, most of these different organizations have, number one Priorities are very divisive. Are Are things that we as an industry are not going to unify around? I, I, I, I just think of this whole thing as over the last 70 years. The beef industry especially, has been forced to play defense and we're pretty good at playing defense. Well, I mean, we are forced to play defense. We've had to play defense. Well, well, it's high time right now, folks. We gotta put the ball in the hole. We gotta score a goal. We gotta, We gotta score a touchdown. We gotta put some points on the board. We had better get to playing some offense. And uh, I think these are some, some uh, the conversation topics we've kind of brought up as an organization, the L m A, I think these are some things we can rally around as an industry and play some offense. Let's go for a score.
Track 1:Well, I agree and, and the irony of it all, and not to cast blame anywhere because there's not just one person or even one entity, but there. were a lot of things. I, I graduated college in 1996. There were a lot of things happening in 1996, and it was an ugly, ugly time from a beef markets standpoint. I mean, fed cattle were around 62 to 5 cents. Calves were even worth less. And I've told this story many a times young guys that have got less gray around their ears than I do. I cannot imagine the anytime that that would have happened, but it was. And we saw the merging of a couple organizations and we saw a couple new packing companies either come about or change hands. We saw value-based marketing come into play. We saw a lot of things that were very proactive and we're probably most, at least on that team, would have said were them, us, the beef industry playing offense. And yet they created so much animosity and you would've had a front row seat for a lot of it That's when we fractured this industry and ended up having three different organizations for folks to try to decide if they're going to belong, who are they gonna be with and who are they gonna belong to? And I mean, it's, it's fascinating if not. Disheartening that you and I, who probably would've been on opposite sides of a lot of those debates in the mid and late nineties are back here saying, folks, we gotta come together. We can't every time we have, and it's usually a marketing issue, maybe a checkoff issue, but it's usually a marketing issue that fractures us. We've got so many issues that we agree upon and, um, you know, the state organization that I belong to, Kansas Livestock Association, their mission statement is to advance members' common business interests and enhance their ability to meet consumer demand members' common business interests. And that's basically what you're saying. Let's find the things that we agree on because 90 some percent of the issues that face US ranchers today, I think most of us are gonna say, yeah, this is the, this is where we need to be on that. It's those five or 10 or two or whatever percent of the issues that we go no, no, no, no, no. We don't want this person owning that, or this person being able to do whatever on the marketing side. So yeah, long way of saying that, there's nothing new under the sun. I mean, here we are 30 years later talking about we gotta come together and we've got to find a path forward. And, um, frankly, I, I think what I'm hearing from you is we don't necessarily feel like it needs to be LMAs ball to carry. But we're at least gonna put it in play
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:That
Track 1:let's figure out how to win the game.
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:Yeah. You, You read it perfectly. I, I, uh, it's not for l m a to take it to the finish line. will, will we help do it? You darn right. We will. but I do think it uh, we feel strongly enough. about it as auction market owners. That we somehow, some way somebody has got to go to bat for these, these grassroots cow calf people, these people that run yearlings, these people that sell grass and, and uh, you talk to, I mean, we talk to consignors every week that, I mean, they don't call just because they want to know when the best time to sell their calves or best time to sell their cows, or best time to sell their yearlings, whatever it might be. Heck, we got a lot of people call up and say what do you think about this fertilizer? Or What do you, when uh, what do you think Hay's gonna cost this year? I mean, I mean, they become they're, they're part of your family. They uh, they, these people, we got real, real close, intimate close relationships with these uh, different consignors and, and they mean something to us. And, And uh, we're losing them. And uh, I, I just look back at, at uh, 20, 25 years ago, when you look at the, the and some member marketing businesses we have within the L m A uh, I would say a high percentage of those Uh, businesses 20, 25 years ago sold hogs on a consistent and regular basis. Today. Today very, very, few. very few. And that's what we're concerned about it. If we don't do have some pushback, if we don't, if we don't create some uh, real incentive for these people to leave their land in livestock production, whether it be lamb or beef, if we don't con, if we don't incentivize these young people into wanting to be able to do this and make a decent living at it, we're gonna continue to lose'em. And in 20 years, maybe 10 years from now, instead of 800 and some member markets, maybe we have three to 500. Maybe we have 400, but we're gonna have a lot less of us. And that's what, when you look at these rural American towns, what makes up a small rural community? The school, the auction market, that, that's it. You lose these auction markets out of these, uh, you lose these the, the, the truest form of price discovery there is in the world. You lose that out of these rural American communities. You lose that community. And that's what we're fighting for. And uh, it's not just for us. It, it, it, It's for the community. It, It's for this industry. And, but we as an industry, we as grassroots people, we can't expect somebody to go do this for us. They're not gonna. They're just not, we have got to get proactive. We've gotta make ourself go to our different industry state affiliate group meetings and force them to make some policy to go to their national levels and make this number one make the, at the national level. Let's make it number one, that we gotta create some incentive on a consistent basis for people to wanna do this. How do we do that? That's what we go to these meetings for and create. But I think it's has something to do with tax incentives. I think it has something to do with getting us on a fair and equal playing field to compete for this land. And I don't think it's too much to ask, but we've gotta go do it ourselves.
Track 1:Well, and I know there's lots of different types of tax incentives and I am no expert on any of'em, but I've heard you talk briefly and you mentioned it here, about tax credits. And the thing I like about tax credits is that you have had to make some income, you've had to do things right enough that you at least have taxable income. It's not just a government handout for doing nothing or doing it poorly, or not keeping up with the times and being progressive and all these things that we really need to do to let the market work. And maybe that's, maybe that's as simple as that. We figure out places that you can have a credit toward what taxes you were gonna pay anyway. And so it still encourages you to be as profitable as you can and make as efficient of and, you know, smart decisions as you can and, and uh, be rewarded that way. So, I know we're not gonna come up with the silver bullet here I do, I command l M A because we have used some sports analogies here on this podcast, and clearly the Goggins family watches the little sports and plays a few sports. I would hate to know how many kids, nieces in-laws you have that have played college sports. Um, do you know, do you have a count?
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:Oh it'd be,
Track 1:You'd need fingers and toes? I think.
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:yeah. yeah. There's, There's probably eight or 10 of them that have played college ball and uh,
Track 1:You know, your way around the basketball court to the volleyball floor or the football field. Um, maybe l m A isn't trying to be the quarterback. Maybe they're just trying to be the ref and make sure that the teams that are on the field have the most opportunities to win. And, um, instead of just trying to start a fight every time we've snapped the ball,
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:Yeah I've never heard that analogy, but I think you are exactly right in that analogy. That is uh, I mean, we've tried to stay neutral and I think we as an organization, we as auction market owners over the years have learned that we've gotta stay neutral. I mean, we deal with people that uh, are on all sides of a bunch of these different issues, but we uh, but uh, but we have uh, decided as, as an organization that, that this is something that's meaningful. This is something that we're gonna draw a line in the sand and say we're, gonna, we're gonna move forward. We're gonna try to start this conversation. We're gonna try to unify this industry and try to get uh, producers uh, proactive enough to where they'll go to some of these uh, state affiliate meetings and uh, create some policy that we can carry forward and get some policy at the national level, at these different respective uh, groups. And maybe we can go to the senators and representative offices in DC with one message or two messages with one ask. And you look at the things that we have rallied around in the last few years uh, uh, that have been so, so productive is uh, you look at our transportation law, the e l D law is it perfect? No, but it's this
Track 1:better than what we would've gotten.
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:it, but it's so much better than what we would've got. You look at the dealer trust and uh, uh, the, this industry rallied around that idea for the protection of these uh, producers. And I just think it's this is a case that that we need to rally around that and in my mind we do it not only for rural America, but if we don't we stand a real chance of losing our food independence in this country. And that, that, that scares me.
Track 1:Yep. Well, I, I commend you for it. Anytime the industry can have a good discussion on meaningful issues, regardless of whether we find that silver bullet or not, I think it's a win. I think it improves our perspective. I think it improves our, our passion and dedication to the industry and doing the right thing. And, And I commend y'all for it, and I, I hope that we as an industry can come up with some real solutions going forth.
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:Yeah. Uh, Absolutely. I just, I so appreciate you having me on today. And I, I really consider you one of the good thinkers in this industry, in this business, and it's a pleasure to be part of this and hopefully we can continue to spread the word, hopefully we can continue to create a conversation. I mean, that's all we're trying to do right now is just create this conversation to move forward.
Track 1:Well, good. And I appreciate you being here and, and that means a lot coming from you, Joe. And keep up the good work.
joe-goggins_2_10-02-2023_130327:You bet. yeah it, we've had some Moisture up here. It's coming south. They tell me. So get ready, get your muck, boots out. All
Track 1:to, I'm ready. I'm ready.
Thanks again for listening to practically ranching brought to you by Dale banks, Angus. Wait efficiency, gain marbling yield. The industry always wants more. But those extra few pounds or percent often come with increases in labor feed and other inputs. For decades, our family has focused on optimal animal performance. With labor saving foundation traits like foot soundness, fertility, longevity, sound, utters, and docility. Now this system's approach to genetic selection may not produce the bull. With the most of a given trait or EPD. But we think it results in hundreds that find that sweet spot between sensible inputs and optimal outputs. We'll sell 150 yearling and coming two year old bulls at our annual practical profitable genetics bull sale. Saturday, November 18th. The bulls will be freezed, branded fertility, tested, vaccinated, poured, and ready for immediate turnout. We're excited to have some new sire groups by balanced trait, sires, such as to Tehama Patriarch, Yon Top Cut, HF Safe Sound and Sitz Reslient. Plus we'll have the time tested sire groups by deer valley growth fund Connealy cool and other bulls that you've seen in our program. Bull sale catalogs will be available in late October. Just contact us@dalebanks.com to request yours. Videos will be out on the bulls and mid-November the bulls will be walked through the sale ring for live bidding on November 18th. Or you can register on the cci.live to bid online. Thanks for your interest. We hope to see you at the sale.