Miles Theurer coordinates research projects for Veterinary Research and Consulting Services, LLC, a practice comprised of 12 veterinarians who specialize in feedlot production medicine and research across the high plains region. Miles grew up on a family farm and cow/calf operation in south central Kansas. He did a dual DVM/Ph.D. program at Kansas State University.
miles@vrcsllc.com
Miles Theurer coordinates research projects for Veterinary Research and Consulting Services, LLC, a practice comprised of 12 veterinarians who specialize in feedlot production medicine and research across the high plains region. Miles grew up on a family farm and cow/calf operation in south central Kansas. He did a dual DVM/Ph.D. program at Kansas State University.
miles@vrcsllc.com
Thanks for joining us for episode 52 of practically ranching. I'm your host, Matt Perrier. Regardless of the beef production segment in which you may work. I'll bet there's a person who's one of your most valuable partners. Veterinarians play a critical role for all of us in livestock production. And while they're boots on the ground work at urgent times like preg check day or bangs, vaccination, or even the occasional emergency call might be very important to us. Their most valuable asset might not get utilized often enough. And that is consultation about management and herd health plans. Before things get out of hand and reach that urgent or emergency level. Dr. Miles Theurer is one of those vets that tries to help his clients and partners do just that take a broad approach to challenges and emerging technologies and consumer desires and other pieces of the beef industry puzzle. And formulate practical, profitable ways to efficiently produce high quality beef. Miles' coordinates research projects for veterinary research and consulting services, LLC. It's a practice comprised of 12 veterinarians who specialize in feedlot production, medicine, and research across the high Plains region. Miles' grew up on a family farm and cow calf operation in south central, Kansas. And he did a dual DVM and PhD program at Kansas state university. I met miles at a meeting a couple years ago, and I was impressed with his abilities to ask pertinent questions and then think critically. And look introspectively to solve problems. In this episode, we cover a bunch of stuff. Vaccine alternatives, judicious use of antibiotics, new products for gut health, dairy beef, cross cattle, and even finish up with miles outlook on some potential changes in the way our industry moves toward optimal levels of production, not just maximums. Miles is a humble guy who is exceptionally intelligent. He's equally passionate about the beef business. And that makes for a great combination in my book. So thanks for tuning in God. Bless each of you and enjoy this conversation with miles theurer.
miles-theurer--dr-_2_03-07-2024_140240:Happy to be on the podcast, Matt. And, uh, really appreciate what you do from the field. You know, the things over what we do from the research and the day to day application, it's, it's most important that we, develop resources that are be able to apply it in the field practically. So I think it's a great, great format and appreciate all the efforts that you've been leading through the organization. So my name is Myles Theurer. I'm the primarily the research director with veterinary research and consulting services. We are primarily a feed yard veterinary consulting group. There are 12 of us that work together. Um, and we've covered feed yards from Texas to Washington and everywhere in between. Uh, every day there's over, two million head of cattle that's underneath our, our care. And so we were working with the crews, to do animal. Handling training, look at, you know, processing, um, working with management crews to determine their goals and implement them out into the field. Um, and so we also do some CalCalf, backgrounding and some dairy operation work as well. We kind of cover the, the. Fast gamut in the beef cattle production side. Um, and like I said, so my role is I'm primarily the research director. so I'll be coordinating research projects, whether it be that is vaccines and implants, dewormings. strategies, looking historical data, anything under the sun so we can look at better ways to improve health, performance, carcass outcomes, um, to, to make it a more efficient supply chain. I'm primarily based in Southwest Kansas, live in Montezuma, primarily work out of High Plains feed yard. located outside of Montezuma, um, but also we'll do consulting with some of our other organizations and operations as well.
Track 1:Well, we'll. talk about as much or as little as you want to talk about as some of the different research trials that you're doing at High Plains there because I know they've been a leader and in the entire feeding industry and specifically in Southwest, Kansas At doing some some pretty cool stuff through the years I guess from a cow calf standpoint, here we are. It's hard to believe, but we're in mid March and folks are already getting kind of geared up to brand and work calves on the ranches across the High Plains, I know, and everybody does that a little differently and a little different timing and things like that. But let's start out. On a practical basis, uh, for cow calf producers, if you're a vet today, after what you've seen coming into the feed yards and some stalker operations and things like that, and even working with those cow calf herds, if I came to you and said, Dr. Theurer, what do I need to give these calves, what do I need to give the cows pre breeding, has kind of changed throughout the years, what would you advise, just in general, as far as what we ought to be getting these calves ready for from an immune standpoint as baby calves?
miles-theurer--dr-_2_03-07-2024_140240:You know, I'd say the first thing, would be to recommend consulting with your local veterinarian is first, um, because they are the ones that has the boots on the ground, that has knowledge over the, the organization and operation and certain challenges that they, um, work with. And so, so being able to provide some general blanket statements, maybe a little bit. bit to outstanding side. But, um, you know, the main thing, you know, looking at, um, looking at these cattle, we know that modified live vaccines from a respiratory disease are very effective, in reducing disease. And so making sure that we get those calves vaccinated. you know, at prior to weaning and in some way, shape or form, is very essential to reducing, health outcomes there, at the, at the operation during the weaning process is when they transition to the feed yard. Uh, however, it was. Some of the stuff that we've looked at, uh, you know, that the more may not always be better. And so trying to time those vaccines and then also administration of those vaccines have to take into, uh, the vaccination of the cow herd. as well. So when does those vaccines can be used and some potential interference so whether you're using a killed or a modified live vaccine on the cows has the pros and cons. each one of them, but each one of them can be very effective. and so actually, you know, can recommend, utilizing an effective Cal vaccination program to keep, you know, as we think these things up and we start from day one to develop from claustrum and, um, you know, from that fetal programming and make sure that calf has a good day each and every day, those are the things that we think about, that we need to take all into concept as long with the vaccination program.
Track 1:I think you made a comment one time, actually the first time I met you, it's been a year and a half ago or so, and we were talking about this very thing, and I guess my question was, are we getting too aggressive on some of these cattle, whether it be, and I think specifically I was talking about calves, and at that point, Our place was using Modified Live Injectable Respiratory Vaccine. And those calves were getting three rounds of it by the time they got weaned. And we weren't seeing an incredible amount of health issues, but more than what we were seeing when we were just giving them one. And offhanded comment, I mean, you may deny it now, but I thought it was genius, but I think you said, you know, sometimes producers can. Modified live these calves to death. And I thought that's pretty poignant. Um, and it made me stop and think and do just what you said, consult with our vet. And, and as a result, we have backed down a little bit and we're just, uh, uh, we're using some intranasals and we're just using one. of those injectable modified live four ways, uh, for respiratory today and actually getting along better. And it's not, I'm not out here to tell everybody what they need to do, but I thought that comment that we might just be modified live in these calves to death was something that probably had some value coming from a feed yard vet.
miles-theurer--dr-_2_03-07-2024_140240:No. Yeah, I remember that comment very well, Matt. And so I think I think some of that's true is we think, you know, so they these modified live vaccines are a tremendous tool in our toolbox. So we still need to continue to use those. Um, so would recommend that. But, you know, as we think of in general from the agriculture world, if a little good, a lot's got to be better. And, uh, so we just kind of go from one extreme to the other. Um, Unfortunately, it's not the case, necessarily, across the entire gamut. Uh, we had a great opportunity to work with Noble Research Institute out of Ardmore, Oklahoma, with some of their, Producers retained ownership, uh, that through the feed yard and was able to track, a little over 4, 300 calves from 36 cow, different cow calf operations and track health outcomes. And, um, so looked at those, um, we weren't able, uh, looked at them for number of modified lives that those cattle were received prior to arriving at the feed yard. And there were some of them that received, you know, one, two, three, or four. Um, and the cattle that receives the three vaccine, three modified lives prior to the feed yard had the absolute worst health outcomes, significantly worse health outcomes in the feed yard as well. And so when we think about when we're giving these vaccines, every time we're asking that calf to respond and do stuff, you're stimulating the immunity, um, you're utilizing energy from that animal. And so maybe the point where we, um, maybe potentially over hyper immunize those cattle. So when they see something, they just over respond. And, and I lay this parallel with some of the operations that we see with the in the dairy cat ranch world, see a significant lot of vaccinations as well. And, you know, because they're easily captured, we think it's going to be great to put things in there and we, we see a little problem. So we'll add another vaccine and then it just kind of becomes a snowball effect. And so sometimes we still need to let cattle be cattle and, you know, and let. Let mother nature and, um, the good Lord take, take his place and, and let, let, let him develop. And we, we can assist these things and they're still, still essential because we still receive cattle that haven't received any vaccination here in history. And there's true they're train wrecks. Uh, so let's not go, let's not go back to, to know, but you know, we need to think about when and where, and it's something that we need. Um, you know, so the data set that we worked with Noble was. Was just the start point. Um, it's something that is an industry. We need to capture more data on to figure out where more of these optimizations programs may be. And just because we think that they're cheap and we're not doing any harm. I think we need to really look at ourselves in the mirror and and really evaluate that and validate that before we continue down some of these pathways that we have as an industry.
Track 1:Yeah. I think. Anytime a, a cowman or rancher talks with his or her vet, um, they want an immediate silver bullet, whether it is treatment, whether it is, you know, Preparation through vaccination, whatever predicament it is, we want, we want a cut and dried black and white answer that under all circumstances is going to help us and, uh, sometimes wait and see is not, is not the answer we're looking for, but this is, this is probably one of those times that we may need to moderate things back and, and make sure that we're not having unintended consequences by too aggressive of a, of a vaccine program.
miles-theurer--dr-_2_03-07-2024_140240:Absolutely. Yeah, it's tough, tough when you're hitting the heat of the battle and you're, you know, seeing issues. And, and, and, you know, when we think about any from a treatment response or required treatment, it really is kind of a failure somewhere in, in that Kef's life. Um, that, you know, from whether it's from initial claustrum or development with it. And so that's going to set the Kef back. And so when you see those, You definitely want to rectify those things and prevent more from those occurring. And so it is hard, it's a hard concept to think about. Well, maybe we just do nothing and administer, even if we just gave them saline or water standpoint and see what, what that sugar water can. It's amazing what we see some people respond to, uh, on, on the, on the human side. And sometimes we need to consider that in the agriculture side more than what we have.
Track 1:Well, when I see you put placebo in my vaccine protocol, uh, I'm, I'm going to scratch my head and ask if you just really want me to work that much extra. So, you know, I hear from a lot of feed yards that take in various cattle. Especially ones that may be buying cattle that are co mingled and from various different operations and lost all identity and all sources of what those cattle have had done to them. Those calves hit their yard regardless of weight. I'm sure they have certain protocols for this type of cattle and high stress and mid stress and low stress, but as a rule, they're going to assume that none of them have had anything, well, I shouldn't say it this way, but they're going to assume that they've got to vaccinate and process those to the lowest common denominator of that group. So, I guess you tell me, is it? Mostly a function of the cow calf operation not having, or maybe over vaccinating, or is it sometimes that these calves have had plenty, it's just we ranchers have not kept the identity, passed that information to your client, the feed yard, and said, this is what they've already had, now you compliment it the best you can.
miles-theurer--dr-_2_03-07-2024_140240:Great question, Matt, and I don't have a solid answer. I would say, um, we think about that loss of that traceability, and it does limit what we can do with on a day to day operation. The caveat with that is when we know that transportation stress is a real event. And so even if those cattle have had, you know, the, the premier vaccination program and theoretically shouldn't need any, because we look at the duration of immunity with those, those products, um, when they go through that transportation process, it is a stressful event. And we, um, Kind of upset the apple cart and I don't know if we reset it. Does it go to zero? Does it go to 10 versus on a scale of 1 to 100? I don't know what that number it goes to and we have looked at a lot of with, you know, from a delayed vaccination program. So wait until 30 days on feed or so to to administer vaccination um, processing. And we've actually got along so exceptionally well. There's been groups that have fell through the cracks and never got vaccinated. And the problem is, is when we get to the end of the feeding period, we had a lot of IBR and herpes outbreaks there, that went through those cattle. So, So, those are kind of anecdotal one off events that we know, I think from our experience here that on the feed yard side. It supports my bias. So I guess I'm probably going to apply it. It's kind of some of the world for applied science sometimes. But, you know, when we reset that apple cart, we need, we probably do need to do something to him with him here at the feed yard, uh, because we have seen those late term issues that have that have periodically spot occurred. So, but I think the idea, you know, what Okay. done to them prior to the feed yard and how quick and you know, or how, how soon so we make sure we don't stack them. Hey, they were just vaccinated a week ago and now we're going to do them again or certain things like that. Um, it makes it, makes it challenging in the feed yard to be able to execute, but not insurmountable. But losing that identity and that traceability to be able to manage those is cumbersome.
Track 1:the waiting 30 days post stress of, of, you know, co mingling, transportation, you name it, what those cattle or yearlings have had done to them. I assume that you feel like the vaccine efficacy is better at that point as well, not only getting further away from any potential, doubling up vaccines. Is that something that you would recommend for everybody? I mean, the old. The whole tried and true deal is you, you process them on arrival. And I think sometimes it's because, just like you said, nothing falls through the cracks. They come off the truck, they go into the processing chute, and then they go out to the big pen or the big pasture or whatever else. If a person can do that, is it not better, the majority of the time, to let those cattle get settled for a number of days or weeks before you do that next round of vaccine and processing?
miles-theurer--dr-_2_03-07-2024_140240:So I think the idea that we're going to be able to save them through a needle through the vaccination process is probably a fallacy. And letting those cattle rest and acclimate. Um, to to rebuild. There has has a lot of potential benefits. You know, is it? What does that number need to be? Is it gonna be just a couple of days? Seven days? It has to be 30 days. True answers. We don't know. But the idea. over thinking that we have gone along exceptionally well by just letting some cattle rest and acclimate into the feed yard before just running up through from the shoot. Um, because that transportation stress we discussed earlier, um, letting those cattle reset, and try to get hydration so when they do administer vaccines, uh, they will respond. And through the studies, the, the evolved with, and these would be high risk cattle from unknown origins. So different from the retained ownership, you know, cattle completely, we have seen their improvement and treatment response. Um, and, and the cattle, which were delayed vaccination versus let rest for a couple of days and then were processed. And so those were randomized studies and, and those were, um, two separate studies, but as both saw similar responses with that. And so I think the idea, you know, as, as we think about this that, you know, we probably don't need to get in that hurry standpoint and, continue to be in a in a hurry process. But let the cattle rest, acclimate. and then we can process them according to the normal protocols.
Track 1:So part of that's. Processing on arrival, it seems like, especially on these high stress cattle, involves some type of injectable antibiotic. Are you seeing less of that today because of some of the consumer pushback and, and request for us? Or is there enough, for lack of a better term, insurance and safety to cover up any things that we're not seeing yet that you still have to keep that in there? Okay.
miles-theurer--dr-_2_03-07-2024_140240:received slightly an increased use of mass treatment metaphylaxis. Um, as we look at it from the insurance prices and more of the generic products that's come onto market, that it makes it more it's cheaper insurance to provide it for certain groups. Um, and so with some of those price discovery, unfortunately from the day to day operations, um, you're more likely to lean towards that support. And we think about from the The labor, labor available in the feed yards and the challenges. Um, so trying to help support them to give, give the crew every bit of chance to succeed. People are more willing to, to reach for mass treatments on questionable cattle. Now, you know, our job as consultant veterinarians are to make sure that we're still using, utilizing the products judiciously. And so, you know, making sure that, well known origins, solid cattle with a low likelihood of providing sickness, there are not being administered injectable antibiotics on arrival. However, those cattle which are susceptible to disease, utilizing it when and where it makes sense. Um, and that's something that our job is, is consulting veterinarians to review when and where it's being utilized, uh, to determine, make sure that it's utilized most appropriately.
Track 1:Well, and I probably don't even need to say this, because everybody that's listening knows it, but, you know, thanks to FDA and the regulations and the withdrawal times that everybody does follow, I mean, from an actual safety or even residual of that antibiotic going into the food supply. It's a non issue, but it's the perception and the use and things like that that, uh, we continue to be under a microscope on. And, and when we get right down to animal welfare, Truly in the best welfare of that animal, and trying to do what's right for them, not just for our bottom line, and keeping them alive for that matter, but making sure if they are a touch sick, and they've been stressed, and they've been commingled, and had all these, you know, new feed ration, yadda, yadda, yadda, Very well may be on a lot of these groups, the absolute best thing we could do from a humane care and standards and things like that. So, quite often I think we, you know, we worry about the consumer's perception of antibiotics and maybe sometimes, worry too much about that perception and don't just look at science and what it can do for us.
miles-theurer--dr-_2_03-07-2024_140240:Um, very well stated. And, you know, when we think about that and, um, you know, we also want to make sure that when those cattle used responsibly. So when, when the cattle, if the cow do become sick, we still have tools in our toolbox to be able to treat them effectively. And so that's from the, from the resistance, the resistance. Standpoint to make sure that wouldn't, um, you know, we're not overutilizing it. But, you know, from the FDA standpoint, the food safety aspect, there's, there's no concerns. Um, when there, there are reason for the withdrawals are in place and, um, well managed on the feed yard aspect to make sure that none of that product is entering the food supply chain.
Track 1:And that's, like I said, I, with our crowd that's listening to this, probably don't even need to say that, but, uh, you know, out in podcast landia, we always want to make sure and dot all the I's and cross the T's. when we talk about those vaccines,, today we've got different routes of administration between the intranasals and the injectables in terms of vaccine and even within the modified live categories of. Have you done research? Can you share information? Is there a difference, uh, benefit either way at any point in the, in the, uh, situation or is that another one of those that you just need to consult with your local veterinarian?
miles-theurer--dr-_2_03-07-2024_140240:Um, definitely consult with your local veterinarian, uh, on that. There, there's been some. Um, you know, majority of the research has always been focuses on on feed yard side has been with the injectable when you look from the history of vaccine comparisons and and efficacy side is on injectable intranasal standpoint actually. probably has the littlest amount of research that's behind it. There's been some more recent publications that's been done. I have not been involved with any of those, those research trials directly, but I have seen some of that data. Um, been some differences over what does that look like from from shifting some of that microbiome work that potentially with some of those intranasals that may be causing, may be leading to fewer pathogens a little bit later in the feeding period where we commonly see. However, there's some data on some higher risk cattle that look like it did improve responses as well. So I would say my perception is, unfortunately, with as many vaccination as that has been used in the field, there's the least amount of data to support that product. We've
Track 1:So, switching away for at least a little bit from the vaccine and immunology standpoint, every time I pick up a magazine or get online or anything else, there is another new gut health product that I'm seeing advertised. And we actually use a couple different ones in our, in our outfits, and have, we feel like anyway, have seen good progress on that. Do you, as a vet, do any work or trials on some of the feed additives, pastes, drenches, whatever the case may be? And they, they, they all claim to be different, but I think the basics of it, they all have some kind of a, a yeast or an enzyme or, or probiotic or something to work at that gut. And I mean, even on the human side, I. Every podcast you listen to, they're trying to get you to take something else that's going to improve gut health so you can then help fend off some of these other, uh, immune challenges you have. What, what have you done and seen there on that front?
miles-theurer--dr-_2_03-07-2024_140240:been fortunate that we've done a lot of the different feed additive trials. So look, Throughout the time that I've been here at High Plains Feed Yard for the last seven years, um, looking at, looking at those things, you know, looking at them from a health, health response, looking at them from a liver abscess control method, looking at them from just general overall health and performance outcomes. Uh, I would say, you know, You, the yeast component is very common with them. However, they are not all the same. Matt as when you really kind of start to dig into these things that the, there's actually, um, the companies have done a great job of selecting certain yeast and certain subspecies of these yeast that may act in the rumen. versus may act in a small intestine, um, and what they'll bind and do things differently. whether they're binding gram negative bacteria, they're increasing, improving room and PH mechanism of action for all of these products are not all aren't the same. And, and I would say there's a lot of them out there that are trying to say that they're similar piggyback off of other companies, you know, that's, you know, but this East is the same strain, um, Hey, we got this and it's a little bit cheaper. However, when you start to kind of dig a little bit deeper in that, and maybe not all is true. And so, uh, I think when you, when you look at these, um, we've been fortunate to, um, we found some products, we did a trial with, um, Proternative, and that's a live yeast to ax in the small intestine, and we fed that to high risk cattle for the first 45 days and feed. And we saw a significant reduction in, Um, first pull morbidity saw a reduction in death loss in those cattle as well. And then we also saw a reduction in liver abscesses, which that part was more of the surprising standpoint from us, but, um, also with improvement and performance side all the way to close out with those cattle. And so, um, it was pretty, pretty phenomenal standpoint that however, we've, I would say we've done trials. Other trials with success and a lot of data that's probably in the process of getting ready to come out with looking at liver abscesses and, um, with some of the different direct fed microbials and other, um, non antibiotic alternatives is looking for ways, how do we manage these cattle, with potential. Potential options, uh, because, you know, for liver abscesses, our most common method today is to feed the use of Tylosine for control of liver abscesses. And so, uh, and, you know, how, how can we look at other options here? We've done quite a few different trials there. It's getting ready to be coming out in peer reviewed publication shortly.
Track 1:Well, I think it's pretty exciting whether it be at the cow calf level or at the feed yard level when they're mixing it into a TMR. But I think these Whichever ones do work and do do the job that they claim to do. I think they could be huge, and we were talking about consumers just a few minutes ago, but provided that FDA doesn't decide that yeasts are also an antibiotic, I mean, I've, I've griped for years, and I've heard others do the same, that ionophores are considered An antimicrobial or an antibiotic, or at least in the food world of things, because in my opinion, they're not. And, and yet that's what, from a pounds of use and from a percentage of cattle that are quote unquote fed antibiotics, it's rumensin and bovetech. It's something that Subtly changes the makeup of those rumen microbes so those cattle can be more efficient and they can, you know, do everything we need them to do on the ration that we're feeding them. Um, and granted, we've got Tylosin and, and some of these others that probably truly are a type of antibiotic, but if we could get something like these yeasts and some, and some of these. You know, modifying things that make that gut work better and stay healthier and keep it from, um, losing some lining and things like that. Um, it, it, it could be huge for our industry. And, you know, I even, yeah, the liver abscess thing is, is fascinating to me because that's when I think we have to figure out how to get a handle on. And I don't know we had, gosh. Uh, it's been almost a year ago that, that we had a discussion on liver abscesses on, on this podcast with Ty Lawrence at W or West Texas A& M. And, and, you know, that's a challenge that is much time and research and dollars as we've thrown at it, it's getting worse, not better. And, uh, so I really think that some of these could be the, the ticket to finding, finally getting somewhere. If we can keep that gut lining and keep everything right. There in the rumen and the intestines and things like that. Maybe we can improve that, but I guess you tell me what you've seen. And if maybe that's why you saw some reduced liver abscesses in those cattle.
miles-theurer--dr-_2_03-07-2024_140240:I completely agree with the logic Matt, and I think as we look at these, to keep in those intestines and that rumen just modulated wise, you know, allows us to, Um, utilize forages when you know, all of our resources that's going into these animals more efficiently. And so from the consumer wise, it's one of the big sustainability buzzwords is how we can improve efficiency. Uh, but I think when we think about these products. Uh, and the way that we do these things and, you know, back earlier, you want to talk about the silver bullet and, um, with, you know, a one stop replacement, I think we're going to end up and have to change our mindset on on some of these things as we look at alternatives. And it's probably going to take multiple pieces of the puzzle. to go together. So maybe is it going to be two to three products and combination or, you know, a product and a management style change? What does these things look like to stay, at least get back to the playing field of what we're, we're used to expecting, right? And instead of just thinking, Hey, this single product is going to solve, you know, solve all the issues. And and when you pick up the magazine article, unfortunately, that's the thing what you commonly see and jump to and go, aha, here's going to be the end all cure all. And I think we need to probably really take a step back and go, okay, well, how, you know, what's this product? What is it? What's it do? What data is behind that? And how can we utilize that as maybe just one piece of the puzzle? And what else do we need to add into that? Is that, you know, is that a different ration formulation slightly? Is that a, you know, a different way from energy concentration or feeding timing? Lots of variables in here that we need to look at, um, to, to Get real answers and and we need to move them and provide them in a quick amount of time when we talk about these consumer preferences and, um, you know, some of the impact that's coming on with us. But I think I think we need to as a from an industry over says saying, Well, it's up a for B. Because, you know, maybe it's we swap a for them. B, C and D or something along those lines. And, but, but also to make sure that we still can do it in a cost effective way, uh, that, you know, that allows us all to stay in business as a B, C and D or four times the amount as Mode A is. And that really hampers all of our bottom lines.
Track 1:I think we're all guilty and especially as fragmented as the beef industry is, we're all guilty at looking at one thing that happened this morning and that consuming us for the next three days and trying to fix that one thing instead of stepping back and saying, okay. We've been seeing a few more foot rots on the ranches across the nation. And we've also been seeing a few more liver abscesses in the feed yards. And we've seen more pink eye, we've seen more antibiotic resistance or things like this. And instead of stepping back and going, okay, what's the common denominator is fusobacterium. What, what is it that relates all these things? And I think sometimes, not always, but sometimes it, it may be that, yeah, we can tweak something, not just totally forget about what we had been doing, but tweak something. And, and maybe, hopefully. Solve several issues at once instead of just fighting this battle and not worrying about the greater war that we're in.
miles-theurer--dr-_2_03-07-2024_140240:Well, absolutely. And I think also the problem that we, we disregard and don't put enough attention to is we don't study our successes.
Track 1:Yeah, that's true.
miles-theurer--dr-_2_03-07-2024_140240:We only study our failures. I mean, that is where we focus on. And we think of how many, you know, pounds of beef that we're able to produce, you know, with no issues. And what was a common denominator with them? I mean, those are the things that we need to probably really step back and rethink about how, what we look at because, because those are, those are what we want to replicate and repeat. And so we always focus on, um, Where where our failures are and how to prevent the failures and start building up all these stop gaps and solutions for that. But I think I think we might learn more if we learn to actually study our successes.
Track 1:Yeah, that's that is a excellent point. One of our successes that we talk about on this podcast a bunch is increased consumer demand and increased quality of the beef that we're putting out there to that consumer, uh, increased efficiency in terms of. Pounds per head that we're able to do all of those have come about my opinion, thanks to value based marketing and grid marketing and putting a carrot out there for folks in the genetics business like me and folks that are buying those bulls and managing those cattle folks in the feed yard industry to get more dollars out of every animal instead of just the average of this yard on this week that's on the show list. Okay. An unintended consequence. And so, okay, we, we, let's, we're celebrating those successes right now. An unintended consequence of that are bigger feed yard animals and bigger cows out on the range that have got a few more nutrient or maybe a lot more nutrient requirements. Is there talk amongst your veterinary animal health community that some of the issues that we may be seeing, and you can pick your poison of what people want to talk about, whether it's bovine congestive heart failure or structure or feet issues or lip, you name it, is there something from a genetic standpoint or from an intake standpoint or from a sheer size and mass that is driving those or are they just happenstance that they are all hitting the same time,
miles-theurer--dr-_2_03-07-2024_140240:So I would say it's more just anecdotal stuff from discussion wise from what we've had with with the thought process. But I mean, some of the belief, you know, discussions has been. That I've had the thought process and it's just pure hypothesis as we what we looked at is increasing these, the carcass size of these animals and, um, you know, but what have we done to the organ sizes and in the same same standpoint? And, you know, we're making things a lot more efficient, but we haven't. We haven't selected for, for organ size because that hasn't been the marker standpoint. And so as we look at that and you know, we, but however, you know, some of the work that Kansas state has done with seeing heart failure earlier on in the feeding period, it doesn't really support some of that unless there's some of those growth curve and some of those mismatch with some hypoxia development. Right now. It's all just pure hypothetical standpoint. There's actually no data to support, um, support some of those thought processes one way or the other. Um, but I think that's something that we may need to consider. Um, and however, you know, the pounds pay the bills. And so that's where that's where the incentive, um, is going to be continued to go. And that's where we're going to continue to drive on the feed grid side until that economic incentive changes. And, you know, as we look at that, and you look at the cost, and as you go through here, just the amount of resources for the additional, the fat and the extra trim, you know, and some of those yield grade fours and fives, um, You know, as we look at it here from the feed yard side, water is a huge issue for us from the side and this and the support over the feed yards here. And so how, how do we start to change that? Relook at that and what's absolutely necessary that we can still produce that, that wholesome product for the consumer. You know, to keep their demand in our favor. And, you know, as they continue to push back on the size of these rib eyes and, um, some of that discussion that maybe we, we do have to rethink that, but however, for that to be occurred in every. Everyone still to remain profitable in the supply chain. We're going to have to rechange all those marketing agreements and um, you know, so right now the concern everything is continue to pounds pay the bills and keep pressing on them and Produce that high quality product and that's what we're going to continue to do in the agriculture field. However, some of those discussions Really need to be started to have to think about where we're going to be in in 20 or 50 years and what resources we have to be able to get there. Before we get there too late.
Track 1:Well, I'm gonna show my age but I remember the same discussions in the early and mid 90s When guys would slam their hand down on the table and say pounds pay the bills And the folks that created some of the very marketing agreements and arrangements that you're talking about grids said, yeah, but quality pounds ought to be worth more than just commodity pounds that are everything under the rainbow. And so here the industry, thanks to the leadership right in your backyard, here, the industry changed the way that we bought fed cattle and consequently. Changed the way that we manage, raise, select genetics, everything within the beef industry in a couple of decades. I mean, it started right then. And by 20 years into it, uh, half the cattle were being marketed on those grids. The next 30 or 40 percent came thanks to, uh, uh, Zilmax and OptiFlex. But regardless, I know that our industry can do it. I know our industry has renewed its focus on the consumer. And if that consumer is telling us that Uh, if that consumer is telling us that we don't want to have to feed Tylosin in every single feed ration and, um, and if your clients are saying, Hey, there's some costs here that we could probably, by not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and I am not one of these guys that says, well, grid marketing is Root of all evil, but there may be some tweaks that we have to work within our industry and with the processors and others, because, um, as hard as it was to get them to buy cattle on a grid, uh, it's going to be even harder to make them not, I mean, and obviously we'll have to have a better mousetrap, but. That's, that's a long ways from practical. Um, but it is something that I think we as an industry have to, again, celebrate our successes, but take a step back and say, okay, we didn't. See this coming? We never knew we were going to be so good at passing these signals back, but now Do we have some signals that have maybe swung a little too far? And we need to write that ship on the fours and fives and on the Huge carcasses and on the huge ribeyes and some things like that. We can do it I know we can do it, but we have to have dollars to send those signals This is not going to be one of those times that we just do it for the betterment of the industry It's going to have to be an economic signal
miles-theurer--dr-_2_03-07-2024_140240:Yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing. The progress that the beef industry has made and in a relatively short amount of time and, you know, sending those economic signals. Um, it's amazing. Just just watching the American dream kind of, you know, Play out before, for I your eyes and, and see goes through and study the, the history. And I mean, and that's what, that's what we are as cattle producers. You know, that that's where we're we, you know, here, here's where there's an opportunity here. Um, you know, and it's our job from each side of, you know, we look at the feed yard side, it's not, you know, this increase in quality grade isn't because of the magical, you know, feed yards. Stuff that we sprinkle on to them. I mean, we can feed them a little bit longer and move a few things around here. But it's from the genetic producers, you know, from like, self and all those that have selected for this. And it allowed us and, you know, feed yard side, just expressing the genetics. And rather, you know, our job is, you know, I'm feed yard. We're going to express it. And our job is try to maximum, you know, is it maximizing it? And that's pretty much it. What the current signals are showing for us. But, whether those cattle are high quality, made quality, low quality, our job is to express them to their potential and to figure out where to market them appropriately. but I think those quality products that that's where. That's what we're going to have to continue to produce for to keep consumer demand, because that's been very evident when they when they see the flavor profile, they see the tenderness, um, being involved with those, those research studies. I've been a lot involved with that, with proving it onto these dairy beef crosses and, seeing how those, how the consumer to be involved with taste tests with those, um, to to see the consumer acceptance of that. And it's been been kind of unique to see that that organization opportunity that type of opportunity grow as well. And so I think it's it's something that we got to continue to put emphasis and focus on.
Track 1:Yeah, I would agree completely. And if we lose focus on that consumer, if we lose and quit asking them what it is that they desire, and quit listening to their answers, it's, it's going to be at our peril and, and, uh, we did it for way too many decades. And I saw it. As a young person, and I saw those who worked so hard in 94, five and six to try to start some of these value based marketing, either companies or arrangements or whatever the case may be, and I was optimistic. I was hopeful and I was 22 years old at the time and thought that this was the only way we could go, but even I never dreamt that it would take hold quite like it did, but like I said, it's the American dream and you put money out there and people are going to figure out how to produce what it is that will gather the money. So you mentioned another thing that. Happened even quicker than the adoption of value based marketing in the beef industry. And that is the beef dairy cross movement. I remember seeing a copy of the letter that Tyson sent to feed yards who had been supplying them with. black and white Holstein steers and I don't remember how long they gave them but basically it was about two years because they knew those bull calves that had hit the ground had been castrated and sent to the calf ranch still had to have a home but basically they said after this date we will not process Holstein cattle and I have never in my life seen a market signal take Shape so quickly and those Holstein male Holstein calves go away so quickly back whatever it's been now, 10, 15 years ago. Um, tell me a little of what you've seen. You, you mentioned the consumer taste panel side of things. Talk a little bit about that industry and the growth of it and where you see it going from here. Cause there's a lot of air that. Is sucked up in conversation about this by beef producers, thinking it's going to be the ruin, ruination of the cow calf producer. Where do you see it from your seat going, going forth?
miles-theurer--dr-_2_03-07-2024_140240:So I would say that the beef dairy crosses have been phenomenal addition to the feed yard for the feed yard side and so we look at that and, you know, very fortunate, um, here with High Plains Feed Yard was one of the one of the very earlier ones into the program and feeding some of these and developing some of these crosses would say that the thing over looking at that is making sure that known genetics and finding the type of type of bulls that will work on to those cows. And, um, it is very, very specific. It takes some time to work, to work through, you know, and capturing data and making progress. you know, it's very, it's very key. The thing with these is, is we think of them from the dairy side. The thing of what we're looking at now is you're seeing a lot of them, not just from a Holstein side, but seeing a lot of crossbred. So with the jerseys and um, different breeding programs. And so that's opened up another kind of. area of opportunity to really kind of target, um, you know, target breeding for those programs. We look at these, though, these types of programs, they've filled a tremendous hole into the calf supply's champ standpoint. And so from the feed yard aspect and the buy have been great. They're not going to displace cow calf operations by any stretch of the imagination. I do not foresee that. Uh, you know, we look at these. They come with a lot of other issues and headaches as well. Uh, one of the things for you when you talk with Dr Ty Lawrence, um, had him on earlier talking about liver abscesses and we see we see significantly higher liver abscesses in the in cattle fed here into the plains, with these, crosses compared to our, our native, uh, cow calf, cattle. and unfortunately we don't have data to say why, but you know, a lot of the, the theories over cattle were on grain from an early age. And so more opportunity for, some of that gut lining to be broken through. And acidosis is the current thought process, uh, common thought process, but it's very hard to be able to prove that, to say that. So I think as we look at ways to manage these cattle more effectively throughout the supply chain, Um, we, and we see some variations from, from ranches from for where those cattle were sourced from that we're seeing variation in liver abscesses. So I think there, there could be an opportunity to tie out some of that back together to make it, um, a more, more wholesome product. As we go through and look at the quality grade with it, those cattle generally grade exceptionally well. And so those value based marketing programs we talk about, they do exceptionally well, um, with the grade, um, yield grade as well. Currently from the dressing percent side of those things, they will not yield quite as, they won't yield as well as compared to native beef cattle. But one of the things I always like to ask people, I says, can you tell me what dressing percent tastes like? It's an accounting function. I mean, it's used to be, you know, originally set up to kind of from a red meat yield perspective and pounds, however, work that we've done with these and kind of the phenotype stuff. And we've done a lot of collaboration with Texas tech, um, working with research with them to, you know, some of these really high performing beef dairy crosses. Well, actually out yield some, native cattle. Uh, so, um, you know, the, the thing of it with a little bit more bone on them, which is suspected from the dairy aspect as well. Um, but you know, so really, we really need to be looking at how pounds going into the box and going into the consumer hands, that's where we, we probably need to start looking at and paying for. And I think some of that. So some of those discussions are starting to take place over how, how we kind of re-look at some of those things. But, uh, the, the consumer, you know, when you look at those, uh, back from the dairy side, they always were very flavorable. Um, and, and they're palette and then, you know, very tender and, and these crosses are, are showing some of the same. Same phenomenon as well, but we improved the gains in efficiency, so it's a lot more sustainable product compared to the straight Holsteins.
Track 1:Yeah. And, and when we get right down to it, as I heard a guy, well, it's been a month or two ago say folks. You have to remember, these are not new cattle into the beef industry chain. They're just half Holstein instead of full blood Holstein. And for the most part, you know, the ebb and flow of the dairy industry, and of course with sexed semen and things like that, we, we may be making a few more pounds. We are when we're breeding them to terminal cross Angus A. I. sires, but in terms of head, um, we're probably not making a lot more dairy cross steers than we were Holstein steers. There's just more of them that are qualifying for some of our upper end high choice and prime type programs than, than the dairy cattle. And especially with the rib eye shape and things like that did before.
miles-theurer--dr-_2_03-07-2024_140240:And you drive by from the feed yard side and you drive through some of them. And if you're just driving down the feed alley, you may not recognize them that they're not there. If there are some of the top tier of them, you definitely probably wouldn't recognize that they're dairy beef crosses.
Track 1:Yep. We talked a little bit about organs and, and when you mentioned that, I want to clarify, I assume you're talking heart, lungs, and liver, or are we talking more, even more visceral type stuff?
miles-theurer--dr-_2_03-07-2024_140240:Short answer is probably all the above really. We don't know. I mean, so, but I mean, we think about from the heart, the lungs, you know, we're already as from a compromise, you know, from a, system there. And so, but, you know, we look at from G. I. And liver kidneys side. What have we done as we've been? What does that relationship look like compared to previously when we were, you know, a 900 pound heifer was where we were marketing them. And now we had cattle that is coming into the feed yards at arrival. It's like a day. So it's a lot different over
Track 1:So, is there a difference, or have you, you or any of your colleagues worked on sheer mass of, let's just say heart and lungs, of a Holstein steer compared to a beef type Angus steer?
miles-theurer--dr-_2_03-07-2024_140240:We have not looked at that.
Track 1:I'm, I'm just trying to figure out what we can learn if those are cattle that are having a little bit more liver abscess issue. And, and I don't know on the bovine congestive heart failure, if some of these beef dairy cross are experiencing that as much as your straight beef cattle or what, you may be able to tell me that, but is there a difference in size of those organs of two totally unrelated bovine gene pools in. Holstein compared to any of the beef breeds.
miles-theurer--dr-_2_03-07-2024_140240:Yeah, unfortunately I wouldn't have great data on either one of those standpoints to say.
Track 1:Yeah. just to kind of tie things up here, where do you see us from a research standpoint, from an industry vision standpoint, do you see big changes on the horizon in either the makeup of the. Type of cattle coming into feed yards that you work with or, or what we're going to do to keep those cattle as healthy and productive as possible. What's, what's your crystal ball showing for the next 10 or 20 years in our industry?
miles-theurer--dr-_2_03-07-2024_140240:So, I think the important key take home as wrapping things up is to make sure we don't throw the baby out with the bath water. As we stated earlier, we've done we are producing a phenomenal product today. I think the things, maybe some of those things that we talk about are what some of those tweaks need to be. Um, we look at some of the resources for for fat and yield grades. Will those things start to be, um, start to be pre value based on some of these future marketing agreements? I don't know. I mean, that those are some of the, um, we're a long ways from some of those initial discussions. I think as we look, um, you know, as we look at some of these cow rebuilding you know, uh, some of the, the great things from the feed yard aspect, unfortunately, in the heat of the battle is some drought events. And so, you know, so what the, the cow herd is as recently went through, and you look at the opportunity to go back and rebuild that cow herd and rebuild them with higher quality genetics, likely than what they came from there. And so you go back and you look at from the history of the last kind of cattle cycle with that, we came back with even more high quality product. And so I anticipation here is in the next 5 10 years, we're still going to continue to see more and more of those cattle meet, meet those, CAB, you know, prime thresholds are going to continue to see more, more of those things that occur. I think we have to really kind of think about. The future on the, on the feed yard side, um, which affects all of us here is the, um, you know, we, we think about from the water side and, and, we, we have to think about bigger picture side over alternatives, you know, some, you know, starch alternatives from corn or bringing cattle in at, at bigger in weights so we can utilize less resources here from the Ogallala or, You know, put in infrastructure to, to, um, continue to have this, lifeblood that,, it provides, provides for the feed yards and the dairies out here as well from, um, in Western Kansas. Um, Panhandled, Oklahoma in Texas as well. I think we need to really start to study on that and look at options and alternatives there So we still keep our, our wholesome product that consumer loves and that we can, that we can currently produce, but we need to look at how we can produce these products with, with less resources. I mean, just from resources from the feed yard, they, you know, we're used to looking at cost of gain and, you know, average day of the gain and feed conversion. But. You know, what does that look like from water? What does that look like from environmental standpoint? As we look at more of these demands from the consumer side, um, and that's going to be a different mindset. And what, what does some of these, um, maximization versus optimization? Metrics look like and how do we produce these products? I don't don't have all the answer any of the answers Um, but I think you know Providing those groups and having some of those think tanks and strategic planning groups to figure out What what can we afford to give up and still be in business today? That make sure that we're still in business in 25 to 50 years. That's where we need to be looking at Um from these big picture goals,
Track 1:Well I would, I would agree with you completely. I think I interpreted it right that you see us raising less corn in your neck of the woods, feeding less corn in your neck of the woods, and having fewer days on feed at your places. So that's probably going to mean more pounds that are put on, on a forage grass type environment. Over my way and further east. And, um, you know, that's something that I think requires possibly. a slightly different animal than what you're breeding, especially in terms of a beef dairy cross. And, I think, I think that's something that, like you said, is it requires a lot of thought and a lot of minds that come together and go, okay, where, where can we get to still satisfy the customer without overshooting the runway and using resources that we maybe don't have to. And then how do we make it work? And the way we do is. Incentives to do that and, and, uh, those have to come from the consumer and through the retail chain and all the way down through that supply chain. So it'll be interesting. What I was hoping that you were going to tell me, your vision for the future was going to be a, well, let's make it a silver bullet bolus that we put in these calves. When we tag him at birth and we never have to give him another treatment the rest of its life. So, doggone it, Miles, I, what are you doing out there if you haven't figured out this one hit wonder that we can give to everything and never touch the, I guess, job security for you, right?
miles-theurer--dr-_2_03-07-2024_140240:That's correct. Yeah, I don't want to put myself out of a job to do myself, but I think, you know, those ideas over from the silver bullet wise standpoint to really probably where we can make more of the benefit is on the management side, the day to day operations side, you know, instead of trying the idea of or managed through a needle. standpoint. But just from the care and husbandry aspect, as we go back to the animal husbandry 101 and management and nutrition, and you know, we talked a lot with gut lining standpoint, gut health, and how can we manage that and keep those things. successful, then then we don't need that silver bullet. I think, you know, I think we can look at other options here and diversify our toolbox more than what we have have traditionally thought of in the in the cattle world.
Track 1:Yeah, it, it all comes together in a holistic approach. And I've had people say before that, and I'm a kid that grew up through the eighties and remember when we tried to move away from this. Down home motherhood and apple pie American Gothic with the pitchfork view of agriculture and convince everybody that we were Technologically savvy and we were all about high tech high everything and we changed all the animal husbandry Programs to animal science and industry and I've had guys say you know what? It may not have been that, but that was a bellwether of where we started screwing up and thinking that we could just fix everything with a needle and a call to the vet, instead of just taking care of things. Making sure that we're working with Mother Nature, not against her. Working with the forage products that we've got at our disposal, not just trying to feed for six pound gains from the time they're born. And yeah, there's usually some consequences to trying to circumvent Mother Nature. Well, anything else, Miles, that you can think of before we let everybody go?
miles-theurer--dr-_2_03-07-2024_140240:I don't know. Like I said, I really, really appreciate the discussion today and feel free to provide my contact information if anyone has any other, if anyone comes across with the silver bullet ideas. I'm sure, you know, would love to have those discussions and we can see if we can give them a good test out.
Track 1:That'd be great. That'd be great. Well, we will put that contact info in the notes. And again, thank you for being here. It's been a fun discussion and one that I'm sure will continue on, uh, down the highways of Kansas and the rest of the High Plains. So thanks a bunch, Miles.
miles-theurer--dr-_2_03-07-2024_140240:All right.
Track 1:You bet.
Microphone (Yeti Stereo Microphone)-2:Thanks again for listening to practically ranching brought to you by Dale banks, Angus. Spring is upon us. And that means it's time for the Dale banks, Angus spring, private treaty bull offering. We still do have a nice group of yearling and coming two year old bulls available at private treaty. They're freeze, branded fertility tested and ready for turnout. If you'd like info on these bulls email, Matt perrier@dalebanks.com or text 6 2 0 5 8 3 43. Oh five and we'll get you prices. EPDs sires and. Even Scheduled time to come select the practical, profitable genetics that will work best for your herd. Thanks again for listening and God bless.