Practically Ranching
Join Matt Perrier as he visits weekly with interesting, thoughtful, entertaining individuals within the beef community. Conversations will inspire curiosity and creativity while maintaining the independent spirit and practical nature for which ranchers are known.
Practically Ranching
#50 - Dr. Phil, Does Size Really Matter?
Dr. Phil Bass is an Associate Professor of Meat Science at the University of Idaho.
He applies industry experience to teach, advise students and others involved in the Pacific Northwest meat production and processing community; conducts applied research in meat quality with emphasis in beef.
We cover human nutrition, beef cattle genetics, livestock selection, value-based marketing, politics, Economics, Animal ID, Exports, public land use, beef promotional efforts, restaurant wait staff training…and THEN we finally touch on the meat science topics of carcass weight, extra ribs, higher USDA grading standards and, yes…portion size of steaks today, as this episode’s title so aptly implies.
Links:
MeatsPad Podcast: MeatsPad - Learn about the Meat Industry
It's Not a Cow book by Phil Bass PhD (thriftbooks.com)
pbass@uidaho.edu
Thanks for joining us for episode 50 of practically ranching. I'm your host, Matt Perrier. This episode. Was a blast to record. I've never met Dr. Phil. I actually hadn't even talked with them on the phone until we recorded this episode. But a listener connected me with him. And he suggested that I get them on the podcast to talk about an issue. That had been bugging this listener after he and his wife went out for their anniversary dinner a month or so ago. And, you know, I was a little uncertain, whether a topic like this needed to go on a ranching podcast, but I thought. You know, what, what the heck. If it's important to a loyal listener. It's important to our industry. Dr. Phil. Bass that is, is a meat scientist at the university of Idaho. Much like other meat heads I've known. He stays very, very current with nearly everything that goes on within our industry and consumers that are related to it and et cetera. And he isn't afraid to address all of them when he needs to. As Dr. Phil says, he knows a little about a lot of things. So we cover the gamut. Uh, we hit human nutrition, beef cattle, genetics, livestock selection. value-based marketing politics, economics, animal ID, exports, public lands, beef promotional efforts, restaurant wait, staff training. And then we touch on the meat science topics of carcass weight. Extra ribs. Higher USDA, grading standards. And finally. Portion size of stakes today, which is what the listener obviously called to connect me with Dr. Phil about. Full disclosure. I ran through a whole host of titles for this episode, before I finally settled on the one that you just clicked. Believe it or not, some of them were. We're even in poorer taste than the one that we chose. But when you've got a guest named Dr. Phil. For a podcast on Valentine's day. Uh, how can you resist? True to his name. Dr. Phil is intelligent, he's thoughtful, he's passionate. And he is the kind of guy that makes me proud to be an agriculturalist and a beef producer. And I'm pretty certain that you will agree. So, thanks for joining us. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Dr. Phil bass. On practically ranching.
Phil 1:Well, that'll, that'll get folks to tune in anyway. Won't it?
Matt 1:exactly. Then they'll go, man, he sounds a lot different on the
Phil 1:Yeah. Yeah. So sounds much taller, right?
Matt 1:Right, right, yeah. Yeah, you may not quite have the crazy stories that Dr. Phil would in terms of Valentine's Day, but I guess I first have to ask you, if you're taking a valentine out for dinner, obviously you're going to order a steak, what's your go to cut for a nice romantic Valentine's dinner?
Phil 1:Well, for me, um, I, and honestly, my wife as well, we are ribeye fans. We love marbling and we love fat. So, you know, um, good, good beef marbling. It, there's something to that, um, that it, uh, um, it's, I think it's instinctual for us. I think that goes back to some level of evolution where there's so much energy in it, but it's also very palatable and it's really good. Uh, it's a really good type of fat. And, uh, it's usually plentiful in a ribeye. So we like
Matt 1:a, yeah, I do too, from a food science standpoint and from a consumer trend standpoint, you know, I, I grew up in the eighties and it was the war on fat and we couldn't make them lean enough and. Obviously, up till 1996, we saw what that did to consumer demand, and since then, we've, we've been kind of climbing back. Um, what has changed in that arena, uh, in terms of science and also acceptance? I mean, we're even having some nutritionists, um, we've had one or two on this podcast that talk about from a human nutrition standpoint, how fat. Got thrown under the bus and it was a terrible thing. And as we replaced it with carbohydrates and things like that, um, we've actually made people less healthy. Where are we on that spectrum? And are, are we finally seeing some adoption of the fact that that isn't all bad?
Phil 1:Yeah. You know, um, to, to first answer your question, I think a major change occurred in beef demand when we started refocusing on marbling and on fat and taste, you know, um, yeah, you're right. Uh, growing up in the eighties and the nineties, uh, I remember showing beef cattle in the nineties and they all kind of looked like racehorses. Uh, they were tall and lean, you know, and, uh, Uh, we have greatly changed that to the point where, you know, it's, it's funny. You look at, at old photos of, of, uh, beef from the fifties and sixties and, uh, we're not there. I mean, those were, those were no neck pigs, really what we had back then. But, um, but we, I think we have, we have really started to optimize the beef animal and marbling has driven that and, people are realizing that if we're going to spend the money on something that is, uh, not the cheapest in the meat case or not the cheapest on the menu, it needs to be good and it needs to be satisfying and we need to have good value. And, and, um, you know, I. Uh, my previous employer, the certified Angus beef brand. I, uh, I'm, I'm still very much branded. but, uh, but, but I also really applaud all the other brands that are out there that have seen the success and it's not marketing guys. It is not, um, they're good at marketing. But it's the specifications that come along with it. And they were the ones that really helped to change the tide. Um, you can look at D at beef demand and, and when those brand specifications came out and it was about marbling and that's what they really hang their hat on. And so now we have, oh gosh. Dozens, if not still in the hundreds of beef brands that are listed by USDA, and overwhelmingly they're focusing on marbling. And when we started doing that, and the packers realized that it's easier to sell that, uh, They, they started to, uh, uh, provide premiums and, and that's where we need to be focusing. And, and then the premiums went back to the feed yards, the feed yards realized that if we bought the right types of cattle who, uh, were predisposed to marbling, then we're going to have an easier chance of gaining those premiums. And so I believe that has helped. To drive the, uh, the, the change in beef demand. Um, and we're giving people what they want, not just saying, here's what we got. And we have to be very careful about that because there's a lot of producers out there saying, well, I have cattle and you should buy it. Well, you know, there's a lot of, a lot of car manufacturers out there that say, I got a car, you should buy it. And, and gosh, darn it. We're not going to buy something that we don't want. Um. Your second question on nutrition and gosh, yeah, I have been, I've been really beaten that drum pretty heavily lately on the meat side of things and, and the value of meat in the diet. First off, um, Dr. Shailene McNeil at, uh, National Catamounts Beef Association. I mean, that was probably one of the, the most fun podcasts I've, I've been a part of. I, I, I have a podcast myself. And so one of the, one of the, one of the most fun interviews that I've had recently was just visiting with her about. The, the, uh, the great, uh, uses of meat in the diet and especially beef. Um, and then, uh, more recently, um, visiting with, uh, Dr. Eric Berg at North Dakota, North Dakota State University. And, um, uh, you know, he focused more on, on, uh, using the pig as a model, uh, for human nutrition, um, just because they have such a similar digestive tract. But he fed them hamburgers. And, uh, and gosh, darn it, it, you know, it, it made them lean. It made them, it made them, uh, it, it helped them with, uh, with muscle growth. Um, now, uh, to just feed them straight up hamburgers, that's not necessarily a good thing, it's not a good thing for us either. We need to have a good balanced diet, but meat in the diet is critical. Um, the war on fat was, it was the wrong thing. Um, we had to change that. And now having fat in the diet, I think folks are starting to realize it's satiating. It fills you up. You're not hungry shortly after. If you eat, if you eat just a, um, I don't know, a candy bar or something, you're going to be, you're going to get that shot of glucose. You're going to get that shot of sugar and it's great for the brain and it makes you, makes you active for a short period of time, but it declines very rapidly and it messes with your insulin levels and so that makes you sleepy. Okay. So, uh, if you have protein animal protein in the diet, especially, uh, something like beef, uh, where you're also getting some of that dietary fat, you're going to feel full longer. You're not going to want to snack. and that dietary fat is great for muscle energy. I mean, that's, that's the energy that our muscles want to use first. Okay? Um, so, yeah, I mean, we still need glucose in the diet. Um, it's good for our brain. Our brain, our, is a, uh, is a glucose, user, a very heavy glucose user. And, and it's probably the reason why, you know, if you're really feeling low or you're trying to drive and you're having a hard time staying awake, that Snickers bar is going to do that immediately. But you also need to be snacking on some pork rinds or beef stick or something at the same time to, to extend that, that, that energy level. So. Anyway, I'm going on and on about this, but I think it's, I think it's a pretty cool
Matt 1:No, it is. And when a meat scientist talks about the two things that you've just talked about for the last six minutes, one being beef demand and consumer demand and basic trickle down economics from consumer all the way back, and then flips the switch and gets to talking about human nutrition and why it is that what we were told through the late seventies, eighties, nineties, uh, in terms of, you know, No fat, no real, what I would say, bodybuilding protein. Um, yeah, I look fast forward to today. Look what's happened. And that's why you're on here. And this is why I go after guests who like yourself don't just know one thing pretty well, but see that it's kind of this holistic thing. We have to know a little bit about it, about all of it. So.
Phil 1:Oh, Oh, we're, you know, it's all tangled up. That's why I love being a meat, a meat head. Cause, I have to know a little bit about a lot of things. you know, and, and I, and I feel like I do know an awful lot about, about, you know, the, just meat fabrication, beef especially, but I have to know a little bit about a lot of things because the, that entire, everything that you do to that animal, all the way from the point of genetic selection is going to impact that meat finally. And that's the final product. And we have to continue to remind our producers. I was just in, uh, uh, over in, in, in Salmon, Idaho, talking to a group of ranchers over there, and I always like to quiz the audience and say, what is it that you raise? And, and it's funny to see some of the old timers say, wow, weeding calves or, or, or fat steers. No, you are raising food. And if people don't want to buy it, you're, you're, you're no longer, you're no longer ranching. You just have a petting zoo. I mean, we, we have to have, we have to have something that people want and they want to buy it and we want to buy it again. And that's where, if we're focusing on high quality genetics and good management and picking the right animals and feeding them well, um, and marketing them appropriately, we're going to have a sustainable, economic system. And it's going to be able to be passed on.
Matt 1:So I didn't invite you on here to talk about this, but I have to ask when you do have that rancher, cause I, I hear that more today, you know, we went through this whole refocus, not refocus, focus on the consumer movement about the time we were seeing branded beef. Kind of in its infant stages. And we said, we have to focus on the consumer. We have to look at beef quality assurance and making sure that we're handling these cattle while they're alive and being developed in a way that makes the best eating experience. And, you know, we moved the vaccination location to the neck. We did all these things as an industry that were just basic consumer demands that we weren't meeting. And then. We went to the branded beef movement and we went to more marbling and more tenderness, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Now I'm hearing more and more producers that are going, By gosh, I'm doing all this stuff and it's just making money for the feed yard that bought them from me. Or it's just making money for that packer that's selling it. what do you say to that argument? And I see their point, especially if they are not figuring out how do I tie information To this calf whenever he or she is sold so that I get to share at least a portion of those premiums. But how do you address that guy that's sitting in salmon Idaho saying, no, I sell 575 pound steers. Period. After they leave my place, I could give a darn less. What happens?
Phil 1:Well, yeah, um, it, it, it's just like any other product that's out there. You have to keep the end in mind and that final consumer that's going to be purchasing it. And yeah, if all you're doing is selling weaned calves and you don't have, and you don't really care about what happens next, um, then I worry for your business model. That is, that is a really old fashioned way of going about things. We have to, we have to keep. Connected to that entirety of the of the value chain. So if you're selling, you need to be, you need to know who you're selling those animals to, um, and talk about all the great things that you're doing for those animals. So hopefully, hopefully you're preloading them with good vaccination protocols that you, you're, you're out there, um, and making sure that they're getting the colostrum they need early on. guy in the chain. Maybe you're not going to retain ownership. I will tell you some of the most, And I tell, I tell the guys over in Salmon, Idaho, I tell the guys in Manhattan, Kansas, I tell everybody the folks that are really, uh, focusing on, on, um, uh, progressive cattle are considering retained ownership. maintaining some type of interest in those animals all the way to the point of the packer. That's where you're going to get that premium, but it's also a risk, but it's a risk that you're banking on. You've done the things. And some of those premiums. Now, we can look at it as the trickle down economy effect, and I think that that's still very viable, as long as you're marketing the things that you are doing to those animals. So, again, good vaccination protocols. Antiparasitics, you know, you're worming those animals at the right time. You're, you're, you're doing, you're doing all the right management things. You need to be telling the people who are buying those from you. And I think people are willing to pay for that. It's, it's more than just, you know, no horns and a black hide. It's, it's, I think you can, you need to be selling. Uh, you've, you've gone through beef quality assurance training. You're, you're, you're, you're vaccinating the right place. Um, you're, uh, if you are creep feeding, you need to be telling these people that because those animals are now, uh, we're learning more and more about from the meat science side that. fed calves, um, are marbling really well later on in life. You're, you're, you're, telling, you're teaching the cells, the muscle cells, uh, what to do early on in life. So that when, when, uh, they are eventually on the high concentrate feed ration, um, they know what to do with that. The, the body knows what to do with that extra. And so, All of those aspects needs to be sold, you know, and and I know a lot of guys that have decided to try to market Direct to consumers and and that way they're they think they're going to gain the value and it works for some Um, it's the ones that are really good at marketing and and uh and have that already pull through demand. People are asking for it. But for the folks that maybe have a thousand head, um, it's really hard to direct market all of those animals. And so we still need to use the normal market chain. and in that case, you need to be selling what you have. You need to be talking about all the great things you are doing to those animals. And if you're not promoting that, then, then you're missing out on value opportunity. So I gave, I gave you a whole bunch I know
Matt 1:No, that's, that's exactly what, I mean, that's in my opinion, that's exactly right. And, and it's so. Disheartening sometimes to see just how short sighted sometimes that we are in the farming and ranching industry and that not only are we just. Producing X commodity, but I could care less what happens afterwards. And I'm going to, you know, oppose right now. I know out in NCBA or a week or two ago, they were discussing the animal disease traceability program. And all of a sudden that gets tied to ID and that gets tied to big government and big brother watching. And they're going to just, you know, tell me that I poisoned someone on down the way, and I'm against that. Um. Golly, it's hard for me to believe in 2024 that we don't have a nationally accepted or adopted identification program that we can, by the way, use in a lot of these different programs so that if I am selling calves 10 at a time, I can show why those calves are better than the next guy's 10 that he sold, why they were treated right, why they had the right genetics or whatever the case may be, instead of being afraid of someone knowing that I produce those 10 calves. That's, that's just, that's again, not why I had you on here, but it is something that really, really challenges me as I go forth and looking in long term at how it is we market and merchandise and produce beef
Phil 1:the, the reality is on, on that, on that line. And I'm sure you have some other directions you'd rather we be going, but I want to talk just, just briefly on the value maybe of putting that ear tag in those animals. Um, guys that, that opens up avenues of marketing for us. And, um, some folks don't realize, I'm not going to say some folks, I would say most folks probably don't realize the value of our export markets. Um, they add value to that animal that we cannot gain in the United States. We're not going to eat all the livers, hearts and kidneys and tongues that we can generate here in the U. S. But we have countries out there that pay dearly for it and are really excited to get it. But so much of those, so many of those countries do have full animal identification programs and I'm just waiting for the point where they're going to say you have to have one too if you want to sell to us. And And, some of them already do. And some of them do. Yep. Yep. Source verified. Yep, exactly. So, so it's a, it's a marketing avenue guys. Um, it's a way of gaining a little bit more value out of your animals by putting a silly ear tag in.
Matt 1:Yep. Yep. Well, so let's go back to one of the first questions I asked you. You're going to Valentine's dinner with the wife. You're both ordering ribeyes. We have sold a month or two ago a 1, 600 pound live weight steer that has a thousand right ish pound carcass. Average wise, that ribeye is going to be how many square inches.
Phil 1:Oh, well, yeah.
Matt 1:Go back to your preliminary yield grade equate.
Phil 1:I'm having to go back to my, uh,
Matt 1:to be 16 plus.
Phil 1:it could be. Yes, it could be. Yeah. Um, it doesn't have to be though. And this is, this is the fun of the meat science side. So, okay. All right. Hold on. Hold on. I hope you brought your seatbelt because this is, this is kind of cool. Okay. Back to the branded beef programs. Okay. Um, and and we could say certified Angus beef. We could say sterling silver chairman's reserve swift 1855. The list goes on and on and on Um, many of them actually have a ribeye area specification Which means you can't make it over 16 square inches and get the premium of those branded beef programs Okay, so here's what I have observed Yes The old yield preliminary yield grade calculation would would say it's probably over a 16 square inch or by, um, all of it depends on fat thickness as well and and and other and other factors. But, um, yes, it's probably going to be over 16 square inches. What I'm observing is it's not. What's happening. What I'm seeing is yeah, cattle are definitely fatter and that's going to add to that extra weight. They're getting longer. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, which is kind of cool, which makes a lot of sense because if you think back to, you know, uh, you and I are probably about a similar vintage and, and when we're, when we're learning how to judge livestock, you know, the big one, the long one wins. Okay. So we've selected for long animals. We've done this in pigs already where we've actually added ribs. to the pig because we've selected for longer animals. And so now that we're getting bigger bellies and longer loins and, and there we are. So I'm noticing some of the really high hot, hot shot genetics that are out there, um, where there's this mysterious 14th rib showing up.
Matt 1:Yeah.
Phil 1:Cattle, cattle are supposed to have 13. According to my books and the things that I teach in class. But this mysterious 14th rib is, is popping up occasionally. And I get, I still get the opportunity to do an awful lot of beef cutting. And it's fun to see that sometimes it's just kind of what we call a floater rib. It's just an extra little thing that's hanging out there. But I've seen just straight up, this is an extra full on rib. And what, what we're doing is we're just telling nature. We want them longer because we're going to get more of those middle meats. And so nature says fine, uh, but we have to put some structure in there and that's what, that's what nature is doing is throwing an extra, uh, an extra vertebrae in there, which adds an extra rib. so. All of that to say, yes, we may be getting really, really big animals, which is awesome because that's more meat leads to a little complications on the fabrication side, but you know, we're meatheads. We'll figure that out. They're getting longer. They are. And yes, we're getting some really big ribeyes, but I wouldn't say that it's an overweight. I don't, I wouldn't say it's a, it's a big problem. I'd have to go back and look at the recent beef quality audit to see, but I think we're still in a pretty similar average of about 13, 13 and a half square inches.
Matt 1:Yeah. Yeah. And back on the extra rib conversation, uh, this has been a while ago and so I had to reach back. But episode 22 of this podcast, which was October 20 of 22, I had Diana Clark from
Phil 1:Oh yeah.
Matt 1:she said the same thing. And, and, uh, in fact, when I saw her doing a cutting demo at the CAB conference when I met her, She mentioned it up from the stage, uh, that more and more they were seeing this, not a floater rib, but an actual attached rib, which, uh, yeah, I mean, we always laughed about the fact, wouldn't it be great if we could make a longer, longissimus dorsi? Wouldn't it be great if we could make those middle meats that drive so much value, especially on these high quality type of carcasses into said carcass? Wouldn't it be great? Well, guess what? Maybe we are And, I think everybody who's listening to this knows why a big ribeye is bad, especially in food service. But even sending home, if, I wanted a. Let's say a 14 ounce 16 ounce you make the math work But what I would call a pretty good sized steak out of a 16 inch ribeye How thick is it going to
Phil 1:It's going to start getting almost less than an inch at 16 square inches. You might be, you might be just less than an inch and it depends on the fat and everything else that's adjacent to it. But, um, yeah, it just keeps getting thinner and thinner. And so, um, it's kind of counter to what, what production is being told is like, make them big and more muscle weighs more and and that's great. But, it is harder to sell those, uh, really, really big rib eyes. Or yeah,
Matt 1:I don't think as an industry that in any time soon I mean we've added what pounds of carcass weight every year for Ever and ever and ever. It seems like,
Phil 1:it's, it's an average linear average of about five pounds of carcass weight each year that we're at.
Matt 1:His deal was, I just went out. for my anniversary with my wife. And you know what? A 10, 12 ounce steak is plenty anymore. And if I want a 10 ounce steak, that thing's going to be three quarter inch or less thick.
Phil 1:Yeah.
Matt 1:Why don't we start cutting these ribeyes in half? Why don't we start figuring out how to portion size these so I can get, nobody wants to talk about a thin juicy steak. They want a Thick, juicy steak. Um, how do we do it and not compromise the efficiencies of production and scale and, and, you know, everything that we've done in this industry to put up with thousand and 1100 pound carcasses.
Phil 1:Yeah. Oh gosh. Oh, I have so much to tell you right now. What hanging out with the chef groups, um, over the years, they're, in, in the fine dining restaurants where you're going to see the steaks and everything, you know, they, they're making a three dimensional art project. And what I like to call, uh, what I like to say is it's altitude is attitude. If you can get some thickness to that steak, it's going to look better. It's going to be easier to prepare. You're going to get the right degree of doneness. You're asking for a really thin steak. There's only two degrees of doneness. There's raw and well done. And that's it, you know, there's not much in between. So, um, a thicker steak is going to look better and it's going to be prepared right and, and this and that. Okay. So, so that's, that's correct. I remember when I was in graduate school, and maybe this, this is probably going to really start dating me. Um, but, uh, when I was at a National Cattlemen's Beef Association meeting, I believe it was, uh, it was one of the winter meetings and we're in this, this topic has been around for some time. We're making a big, right?
Matt 1:about it. We were talking about when, when we were getting up to 850 and 900 pound
Phil 1:Yeah. Yeah. Which, which, okay. For my research dissertation in graduate school, if I, I was looking for. exceptionally large carcasses. So if I found an 850 pound carcass, I'm like, this is the one, you know, we're going to make all kinds of, we're gonna make Some changes here. Well, heck guys, the average right now is over 900 pounds. Average. Oh, it's like 850 pounds. We're not even, we're not even scratching the surface anymore. Look, and you know what, that's a testament to the efficiency, the great things that are happening out there. The producers are doing the right thing. We're raising the right animal. Okay, great.
Matt 1:Some might, some might be arguing with that in terms of how big is too big, but that's another podcast for another time.
Phil 1:I agree. You're right. Cause well, and that, that conversation has come up in the past and I've asked that question and it's going to come down to how big of a cow are we willing to maintain? How far in the mud are we willing to let her sink before we're like, you know what? She's just a bit too big. She eats too much. And, uh, anyway, so
Matt 1:I would also say that that same system again, editorial way enough. We're not just going to not allow 16 inch ribeyes into CAB. We're not going to allow 1, 100 pound in the door or 1, 700 pound steers. Um, and until that happens, until we don't just have this little discount for heavies, but an absolute, we're going to pay you more if you send us 14 inch ribeyes and down or whatever. Uh, we won't see that change. In my opinion, we won't see that change, but anyways, proceed.
Phil 1:no, that, yeah, that's a great point. It's a great point. So, so, okay, so back to my, my, uh, my time in graduate school and I just remember this so distinctly because the individual is, is so distinct, but, uh, I don't know if folks out there remember Dallas Horton cattle feeder in Colorado. Okay. All right. and, and everybody who knew Dallas, uh, you know, um, tiny little hat. But big personality. Uh, so anyway,
Matt 1:So good description.
Phil 1:But uh, I remember him standing up in the audience and just saying the solution is easy cut it in half And then he sat back down. Okay. Okay, so Us meet scientists. We all got together We got our knives out, talked a lot, and drank a lot of coffee, and had some meetings, and finally decided, You know what? What if we cut that ribeye in half? Reality is, is we are doing that. now the ribeye, if we're talking about the ribeye steak, Okay, um, coming from the rib section of the carcass, It's not as easy to do that. And, and right now the market, the market signal says, just keep selling ribeyes as fast as you can, because we can't hardly keep up. And in fact, you know, there are times and there have been recent times where the ribeye, the, the subprimal, um, has, has encroached upon and even exceeded the value of the tenderloin, which like, yeah, yeah. Whoa, so okay. Okay. So yeah, so we don't have a problem selling ribeyes but what we do need to more focus on just to continue to maintain the the The consumer demand is the rest of that longusmus muscle longusmus dorsi muscle Okay That goes into the strip loin and that's where the value for cutting those things in half is really going to make a difference Because that's, that's fewer muscles that we're dealing with. It's really one single muscle at that point. And for those who are out there and aren't familiar, a strip loin is the big side of a T bone. Okay. And when we make a boneless, now we have a New York strip steak. We can cut those guys, but they're going to still be affected by the size of that ribeye. And so if we're talking about some of these, these cattle that are 17, 18 square inch ribeyes, those are actually very well set up for. the strip point in half. Um, now the ribeye subprimal, it gets a little bit messier. And, and, um, ideally those are, those are better off if we start separating muscles. There's a, for those who are ribeye fans, there's the little muscle on right on the edge of the ribeye. That's the, it's called the spinalis dorsi. It's a ribeye cap. It's probably the best piece of meat in the entire carcass. It's the, it's, it's super flavorful, super tender. Um, that needs to be removed. and then we're down to a single muscle that we can start cutting in half again. And, and that's for presentation and consistency purposes. If we pull that cap muscle off, there are folks out there that are, you know, they'll pay over 40 a pound for it, uh, going into a restaurant. I mean, it's, um, it's highly desirable. I don't know if we've reached the max on what people are willing to pay for that, to be honest. and it's interesting, how that Particular type of fabrication. So if we peel that cap off of the ribeye subprimal, um, and merchandise that, it, it kind of almost turns the ribeye muscle itself, the longissimus dorsi, kind of almost turns that into a byproduct. Um, yeah, it's, it's crazy to think about that, but. It's a highly valuable by product. And, and, our challenge right now is just educating the consumers. So as far as the strip loin is concerned, we can do that. We can cut it in half. The value is still there. If we start peeling apart that ribeye, the, the folks that do the steak cutting, so, the distributors out there that are cutting steaks for restaurants and that, It's harder for them to truly make money on that. They're better off just cutting a thinner ribeye and people are still buying it. And, and it's kind of like the argument where, you know, beef's really expensive in the supermarket and I think that's going to, that's going to cause a decline in, in consumption.
Phil:Yeah.
Phil 1:I don't think that's happened. I think people just complain more. and they still buy it. I think the decline in consumption is just the availability that we have right now in the in the extremely small herd that we're about to have and, uh, and everything. But I could be wrong. An economist could probably tell me different, but, um, I'll, I'll stand my ground and say, you know, people still want meat. they're still buying beef. They're just complaining more. So Bryce, you're complaining
Matt 1:yeah, and for years, every time, and I think, again, this is a function of Now serving a high quality product, but for years, every time the cattle cycle got a little short on supply and beef prices went up, and I'm talking prior to 96, 2000, somewhere in there. I mean, it wasn't a gradual, well, they're buying a little less beef. They immediately traded down to pork or poultry.
Phil 1:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Matt 2:The last cattle cycle or two. It hasn't happened and the economists, as you referenced, will start talking about inelasticity of demand and that we've separated ourselves from the rest of the protein complex and if somebody's going to buy steak, they're going to buy steak. But we as ranchers, I think, still kind of almost want to apologize for beef prices, when in actuality, the only way that we can continue to do what we do is to make that steak so good, almost regardless of what it costs. Those folks who want to buy a steak are going to buy a steak and they spend a lot of money on other things that are an experience. Hunting, fishing, vacation, skiing, whatever the boat, whatever the case may be. Why not let them spend it on entertainment, which is what they're doing when they go out and buy a
Phil:Yes. You know, I used to joke, you know, we have to take a play out of the playbook of our friendly local drug dealer. You know, they got
Phil 2:something
Phil:that people will, will, will pay for, uh, and we'll pay anything for, you know, and, and, uh, and I think that's where we're starting to hit a bit of a stride. You're right. I think the economists are right where we're, we have, we have, uh, disconnected from the other protein. It's, it's not a trade over. protein. It is, beef is, is something that is highly desirable. It tastes different. especially North American beef. We, we have it, we have hit a stride for sure. There's no tenderness problem anymore. You know, I mean, that was a big problem that we were trying to address in the nineties and early two thousands. And, and now, I mean, we do a lot of tenderness research here at University of Idaho. And Um, almost always it's just super tender meat. And so tenderness isn't a problem necessarily. It's the, uh, it was the marbling that we needed to figure out because that's where the flavor and juiciness comes in as well as tenderness. and now that's in abundance to the point where USDA is having to create. higher standards of marbling to, to address the levels of marbling that we're starting to see in, in some of our North American cattle, not just the Wagyu types like this is our, this is our British breeds that are starting to hit levels of marbling that, um, are new to the industry, which is kind of cool. So, I don't know where that that's going to land us. Um, I, I still strongly believe that, you know, a high choice, low prime. Steak is probably going to be your best eating experience out there. You get to a point of, of marbling that, uh, it takes a very refined palate, a very specialized palate to truly appreciate. And, and, you know, that's when we get into our Wagyu's and, the Kobe level of marbling, um, where I like to equate that to, you know, uh, me or a sommelier. So, uh, so a wine connoisseur, you know, I, you give me a 20 bottle of wine and I'll be pretty happy with that. I said, Oh man, that's good wine. You give me a 200 bottle of wine. I said, Oh yeah, you know, that's pretty good. The sommelier is going to say, Oh, this is a 20 bottle of wine. What are you drinking that for? You know, uh, versus the 200 is, Oh yeah. So this has got to have all these nuances and this and that. And, and that's kind of where, you know, you start to get in those really high levels of marbling that, that I think it takes a very specialized palette. So I'm getting, I'm getting off topic, but, you know, the point being that I think the, I think the value is there. I think people appreciate the value and, uh, You're right. You know, stop apologizing. I tell, I tell our, our little small processors, uh, that I work with regularly too, is, uh, they're apologizing for raising their prices and you can't, you can't do that because you won't be in business. You have, you have to, you have, if you're creating something that is worth the value, then charge that value.
Matt 2:Yeah. And, and like I said, I mean, it's not just sustenance. If they're going out and buying a steak, it's not strictly nutrition. Is there an immense amount of nutrition? Yeah. It's the most dense nutritional bite for bite of, of anything they can probably eat when you'd throw in the zinc, iron, protein, you know, and the good fats and everything else. That's not what's driving them to the meat. Case to give 15 bucks a pound for it. It is an experience. It is to go home and have their family go. Wow. Or their coworkers go, wow. Or what, whoever it is that they're trying to impress, even if it's just themselves, that's what they're buying it for. And we need to recognize that and see that they're not only spending a couple of hundred bucks on steak, they're spending a couple thousand on. a new set of hunting gear at Cabela's and they shrug that off like it's no big deal. Why wouldn't we let them do it with steak?
Phil:Yep. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.
Matt 2:So back to the ribeye size and shape, how does this work going forth? You said we need to work with our consumers and educate them and figure out their preferences. If we and when we figure out how to effectively cut that spinalis cap off, after we figure out some of these growing pains with a knife in the meat room, how do we get the consumer to be okay with having a ribeye that is no longer Shaped like a ribeye or a strip or whatever the case may
Phil:Yeah, that is the challenge right now. And, ultimately it's going to come down to, you know, the big changes in food happens at the restaurant. Um, it's not going to happen at the retail sector. Um, it's, it has to happen at the restaurant level. And so, it's getting into some of those, influencers in certain areas, usually, you know, the, the, the high dollar restaurant in a large metropolitan area, that's going to, that's willing to try something different. and provide for the, uh, the dining customer exactly what they're looking for a great experience. but maybe something new and it is new. It's a new idea on kind of the same old thing. And so, you know, you mentioned Bryce, Bryce said, you know, 10 ounces of steak is great. And we can absolutely do that. Then, you know, even eight ounces of steak is, is usually just fine for most folks. I know that, that there are those who go to a. Steakhouse and they want ribeye, but they buy the filet because it's only eight ounces. and I, and I've seen that personally with my own family, you know? so if we can adjust how we cut those, but then also at the same time, educate the consumer about that, then that's where we're going to start to be able to really capitalize on that. those really, really big animals. Um, challenge always comes down to who's making that, who's making that final sale at the restaurant. It's, it's the waitstaff and it's, and gosh, darn it, you know, guys, this is, these are the people that are getting paid the least, but are going to, they are the ones that are driving the ship. and we have to, be conscious of that. And now I'm speaking to all the chefs that are listening, all, all two of them probably, but all the chefs that are listening out there, we have to, you gotta, okay, good, good. Um, you know, we have to, uh, we have to continue to educate the waitstaff because they are the sales. team of the restaurant. And if they can explain the difference, um, and talk about how this is going to be a great eating experience and it's exactly what you're looking for and it's the right size and shape, you know, that's no different than, than somebody selling a pickup truck. You come in and say, I want a truck. Well, we got a big truck. We got a little truck. We got trucked with long bed, short bed, four wheel drive, no wheel drive, whatever. There's no, no wheel drive, but you know, I mean, it's good. That's the one that's pretty dark. Yeah. We got a few around here, in fact, but anyway, uh, so, you know, it's, um, it, it's, uh, it's, it's designing the experience for The customer, um, the, the wine industry figured this out a long time ago. You know, it's, it's, what are you feeling like today? What are you going to have with your. Meal is it? Are you having steak? You having chicken fish? What is it? And now we're going to Calibrate the wine for what you want. Well My question comes back to what I think we need to be asking is what are you feeling like tonight? Are you feeling big and bold and robust? Are you feeling? Something a little lighter You want some lighter fare? We have some of that. cool thing about beef is we can hit all of those categories. Beef, beef isn't just big and robust. rib eyes are big and robust. And even more so, if you want, if you want punchy in the face big and robust, you get a dry aged rib eye. And now you're, now you're selling the really big red, that's on, on the shelf, you know, and to go along with that. but it's designing the experience for them. And, and unfortunately too many folks who are. You know, they're wait staff. If you look at the old, old, steakhouses and say like New York city, there's still a few folks there that made a career out of it. And unfortunately, I don't think that's a case anymore. there are folks that are just trying to make ends meet between jobs. and if we can help them, show them how, selling these, these different items, um, they start to get more buy in into the restaurant. They stick around a little bit longer. They become your, your exceptional wait staff. And now they're selling this different steak, um, that, that might be a lower cost now to the restaurant because maybe it came from a bigger animal. but it's in a different manner and, and, and if we can, if we can upsell in that category, I like to talk to the waitstaff, uh, occasionally and, and, and, you know, if you sell the chicken, that's fine, but you're going to get a bigger tip if you sell the steak. That's just plain and simple. It's a, it's a percentage that, that people pay. unless you're, you're tight and you're not willing to do that, but mostly people will pay 15, 20 percent for a tip. And so if you sell that steak, you're better off. And, and if we can sell them something that is, is what they're looking for specifically. and we're, we're doing that. We're slowly doing that in the beef industry. Pork and chicken figured that out a long time ago. but it was more chunks. In pork and chicken.
Matt 2:speaking of chunks, I think back to when I was a kid and all the beef that we had came out of the freezer and it was wrapped in white butcher paper and it was the broken legged bull or the open heifer or whatever the case may be. And so a sirloin to me until I was 23 years old and working in or 22 years old, living on my own, a sirloin to me was this
Phil:Brontosaurus steak. Yep.
Matt 2:Yeah, that was cut maybe three quarters of an inch thick And just like you said, it was either going to be raw or it was going to be burnt to a crisp. And it was always burnt to a crisp off of our grill. And then we'd cut that into portions for everybody to eat a piece of this sirloin. I went to an Outback Steakhouse. In 1997 in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. somehow I'd saved up enough that I could afford that at that time. I think it was a seven 99 sirloin dinner with all the trimmings and they bring out this sirloin that, and I'd never heard. Your term that today the chefs are making a three dimensional art project This Outback Steakhouse had in my opinion a three dimensional art project It was a sirloin cut like I'd never seen a sirloin and the thing was phenomenal It was red and juicy and but the reason it was was because it was two inches thick by two inches wide by three inches long. It was a cube of steak and I loved it. And if we can do that with a sirloin, why can't we do that with a ribeye? And it's interesting to me that I, I just think of it as strictly a consumer issue and or strictly a packer or further processor that's a steak cutter. I think those are the two choke points. And you gave a really good perspective that it may very well be that. Waitstaff at the restaurant that is the one that we need to lean
Phil:Yeah. Yeah. We need, we need to be helping them, you know, and I'm, I'm glad you brought up the Outback, example, cause I meant to, I meant to mention that. so yeah, Outback Steakhouse really popularized what we call now the baseball top sirloin. and so, yeah, it's, it's exactly what you're proposing to do with a ribeye. We took this big old muscle group that comes from the rump area and now we just cut it into half and even thirds. and, and it's fantastic because, and part of that, and this, this is where, I mean, meat science, we might come up, come up with an idea, but sometimes we're really bad at selling it. but, if you look at the top sirloin, like you're saying, So, the old fashioned brontosaurus top sirloin steak actually has four muscles in it. And every one of those is going to taste different. And one of those muscles, the biggest one, has two, what we call, heads to it. Different muscle is going to have a different eating experience. Okay? What Outback did was they said, No, I want that one. I want that muscle. Just the one people like consistency and if we can, which means there's two parts of a single muscle that are still going to taste different. So every do that, then, then we're actually going to have a better eating experience in the end. If you give them just a single muscle to work with now, it's not one bite was good and the other one was not, now it's like all the bites are similar and they're all good. Because you don't have much to compare to. we can do that with the ribeye. Now the ribeye is very special because it has three main muscles, and they're all really good. Uh, and, and that's why we're, we're probably not going to be taking apart ribeyes, in vast quantities right now. but the, but the strip loin is a great example of how we can start taking that idea from the sirloin and apply it to another muscle. So, so the strip loin really is where the value is right now because it's easy to do, you don't lose a lot of yield when you start taking apart a ribeye, um, things just start getting complicated at the, at the, the state cutter level. So, yeah, it's not the packing inexpensive. Exactly. and restaurants as much as, you know, if you can get, if you can get in front of a restaurateur and, and really have that conversation, it's not percentage of food cost. That is driving the value of your restaurant. It's how many dollars you're taking home, in the end. And, and, and, and a lot of, a lot of chefs and restaurateurs are trained to, well, this is the, this is what my steak costs. and that has to be 30 percent of. The overall value, uh, the cost on the menu. We have to go away from that. We have to say, you know, maybe the steak costs this and, it's going to be actually 50 percent of the cost on the menu, but we're actually going to sell more of it. And so we have to start looking at, at just menu pricing, even a little bit different, um, grocery stores are the same way. They kind of have a set percentage that they need to charge. For the item. And, we need to, we need to take a step back and say, well, we could probably sell more of this if we just lower the calculation percentage, um, or, or actually raised it. So we would say, well, the overall sale cost is actually going to be 50 percent of, of what it is, but we're going to sell more of it, so we're going to get more stakes through the door. At a little bit lower cost, but we're going to sell a lot more of them. So there's more dollars coming home in the end.
Matt 2:I think that's what we have to be after I mean, it's this Kind of holistic systems approach to the, the beef business all the way through, just like we've talked about all the different steps and even down to focusing on an area that most of us aren't very comfortable or understanding of, and that is the restaurant and the retail side of things and how it is that they look at the beef business, from their perspective and it, yeah, it, it. Takes a little wider view, I think, to get some of these things done. So, final question. This will be the easiest one. If you are beef king for the day. Priorities. Let's say if you could pick three things in order, what from now for the next 30 years drives the most consumer dollars back into or into our business. Told you it was easy.
Phil:Yeah. Well, uh, is this, is this a political podcast? It's a, it's.
Matt 2:You, this is everything
Phil:How, uh, how crazy are we going to get here? Cause you
Matt 2:I, the crazier, the
Phil:listen, so I've been, I've been thinking about this and in fact, something really hit me the other day so I get a chance to talk to a lot of beef producers and packers and processors and restaurants and everything. It was when I was going to hang out with the sheep guys. Um, that, that's
Matt 2:okay. We can't talk about
Phil:no, no, no, no, no, it's all right. It's okay. It's okay. Um, and, and something, and something, uh, really hit me that I think is very evident right now in the beef world is, there's, uh, you know, we, we don't sell a lot of sheep meat in this country. We, well, okay, there's a, there's a, there's a historical background to that, but, I believe we could probably sell a lot more sheep meat in this country if we had more of it to sell, based on some of what I've just recent, more recently started to observe in that industry, but we're not raising more sheep. I think right now more dollars could be taken home to our producers if we could raise more cattle because the value is there. I believe we can do it because of the innovations that we have, we have been able to gain in farming practices and, and, um, just overall agricultural technologies that are available to us. We can make more beef. If I were king for the day, I, I, it would have to come back down to, we need to re educate the, the consuming public of where their food comes from. And that has to go and start making changes to policy. I think we're limited with our ability to raise more beef, which if we can, I mean, if, if a producer is limited on the amount of cattle they have by the amount of land they're going to be able to use.
Matt 2:Right, exactly.
Phil:And, and I mean, yeah, there's, there's always going to be the limitation of, you know, how many hours in a day too. But I think it's the amount of land that we have. And, and we're not, we're not using the land like we should be. There's, there's an awful lot of public land that has far too much restrictions on it. and some guys are just throwing their hands in the air and saying, I don't want to do this anymore. and that hurts, that, that bugs me. So I think the. Natural resources are there. They are abundant. I know we've gone through some hard times in the central plains recently. I know there's the drought. I know that we have challenges there. I also believe that if we just were able, given the license to farm and ranch like we should, then I think that would be the biggest change. And that, I don't know if you were expecting that answer, but that's, that's what I've been observing lately.
Matt 2:The one thing I like about Meat Scientists is I never know what to expect. Wit, dry humor, you all, I don't, again, I said this to Diana Clark when she was on here, I don't know what grad level class it is when you enter Meat Science Masters and PhD programs. Each one of you comes out of it with that. You never know what you're going to
Phil:We got, we all got
Matt 2:Too many, too many, yeah, too many days in the cooler. You No, I, I, I can't disagree.
Phil:Yeah. Yeah. So, so that's one. Do I, do I still have two other
Matt 2:Yeah. Two more. Do they get crazier?
Phil:No, I don't think so. I think
Matt 2:Okay. Maybe I'll give you, I'll give you both of
Phil:So that's the big, that's the big ask, you know, between that and world peace, I think we'll be happy. We'll be, we'll be
Matt 2:Yeah. It'd be a piece of cake.
Phil:be a piece of cake. Right. So, um, you know,
Matt 2:Phil for
Phil:oh man, no, I'm too lazy. I like my job. Uh, the others would probably be, you know, we need to, we need to continue to help our producers see where their end product is going. Um, you know, uh, right now, I got, I got two things I want to tell you. So there's. Certified Angus beef is one. I'm pretty sure Creekstone Farms, um, there's a National Cattlemen's Beef Association and many of the other, state beef councils are regularly taking folks out to ranches and helping them see where their food comes from. It's not enough. It's never going to be enough. There's never going to be enough buses to, to bring all of the consumers out there. But man, eyes open when, when they see. Just how much care goes into raising livestock, just how much work. Um, I used to do that all the time and I, and I still try to as much as I can, but you know, um, bring chefs out to ranches because they're influencers in their, in their communities. And, uh, so often they leave and say, we're not paying enough for meat. you know, we, we put an awful lot of work. There's an awful lot of work that goes into raising beef, especially. it comes down to we need to continue to open that door and bring people into our world. I've been for a very long time one of the biggest critics of animal agriculture because we have failed to tell our story. I think we're getting much better at it now. but we have a lot of work to do because, We failed to tell our story and now somebody else has gone and told it and they've told it wrong. And now we're having to backpedal a little bit. So, shameless pluggery. Two things to that one point is we, we, we need to make that connection more. And so, one of the things that I, I really try to promote is just getting more people out to the farms and ranches and trying to make that connection. I know that takes time guys. I really do. that takes time out of your day that you're already very, very busy doing. and I also know that some of us take up farming and ranching so that we can stay away from people, but it's not for people again, all we have is a petting zoo. And so we have to make sure that we are still selling that final product. And so we need to continue to. communicate. Um, I recently here, here again, you can edit this out if you want, but I recently wrote a book. It's called it's not a cow. for folks out there who are in our world, um, you know, everybody calls anything that moves and has four legs a cow and, and we all know that that's not true. And so that's the, that was the preface of it. But, uh, ultimately it's, we need to get And I finally decided, well, this is one way I want to get the message out. It's just, um, a lot of folks in agriculture are probably reading it, but in the end of that book, I say, please pass this on to somebody who needs it. we need to be telling that story to our, to our consuming public. And we need to be getting that, that message out in a, in a very, uh, more elevator speech kind of. version, and it's so hard to do with animal agriculture because it's so complicated. It's, you can't just say it in 30 seconds, and, and that's why I felt like I had to write a book to do that, but, it's not long, and it's not a coloring book, but it's not long at the same time. But that would be my second wish is we need to continue to help make that connection to the consumer. and we need to get more people out to the farms and ranches. We need to show them the good that we're doing, the good that cattle and livestock bring to the world beyond just the nutrition, but also how it enhances the natural resource that natural resources that we have. And especially like way out here in the West. I mean, the ability to, limit, wild land, fire fuel, um, you know, cattle are amazing grazers. They can go places that four wheeled and even tracked vehicles can't go. And they're making meat in the process, which is so cool. They're making a food out of, out of land that we can't use. And so, um, I guess that kind of ties into my, my, my first one, but that'd be my second one is we need to, we need to continue to. Make that connection back to the consumer. Um, and then I don't know. Finally, it's, it's, um, we need to continue to remind our producers what they're doing. They're, They're making food. We need to be proud of that. and we need to be selling that. And, um, you know, this, I, I, I was thinking of something earlier on in our conversation. Um, and so maybe this is a good time to say it, but, a lot of farmers and ranchers are very humble people. And that's great. And it's a good virtue to be humble, but you also need to promote yourself. You need to, you need to talk about the good that you're doing because ultimately it's going to be good for the industry. We can't just sit quietly and, uh, and do our thing because we're going to go into non existence and we can't do that. That's not right. It's not right for the world. Um, it's not right for our industry. So we have to tell our story. Um, I know some of us are, are starting to age out of the, uh, uh, maybe more of the, the, the social media technological areas. I, I'm not good at it. I had to, I had to write down what I was thinking. Um, I, I do podcasts. I go and give presentations. I'm not good at the social media thing, but there are younger generations who are good at that. Let them take pictures of the ranch. Let them tell about the story. people want to know. Where their food comes from. And that's why they're getting this misinformation sometimes is because they just start looking. And somebody else who's really good at marketing and doesn't like what we do has already told the story. We have to tell our story because we have a great story to tell. And, and, and if we do that, then we're going to continue to have demand. I believe all those,, My three wishes, are relatively tied together. ultimately my goal in life is to drive demand for animal agriculture. I want people to eat meat. I don't really care where, which animal it's coming from. I do care where it's coming from. I'm not a big fan of the cell based stuff, but, uh, um. I want our producers. I want our farmers and ranchers to be successful. I want them to have a comfortable life. I don't want them to feel like they're slaves to their land or the government., I want them to be feeling like they're serving their communities by raising livestock and by making food, how virtuous can that possibly, I think it was, I think it was, uh, I think it was, uh, George Washington said that the most noble and virtuous pursuit is agriculture. Um. You're, you're using what the Lord gave us to serve humanity. Wow. Wow. What a job description, huh? So let's remind ourselves of that.
Matt 2:Well, I can't believe that I invited a meat scientist with whom I had never met, spoken hardly ever. Even read about, and yet you basically did my job as a podcaster for me, because I usually have to tie something up here at the end of it. And there is nothing more to say. I mean, that is as spot on as I've heard anybody put together as to who we are, some of the good and bad of who we are as beef producers, but also why we do it and why we need to not just. practice care and respect with these animals, but tell folks just how much care and respect we have for them and for our life, livelihood and for our businesses and our family legacy. And yeah, I just, uh, I should have known that Dr. Phil would come on here and be philosophical about, Humanity and why it is we do what we do, uh, I, I didn't see it coming, but I'm glad that glad that you're here to share it.
Phil:I appreciate it.
Matt 2:Will you go out and have that great ribeye and two ribeyes with the wife tonight? And, uh, we'll all do the same across the nation and always. And, uh, I do want, before we go, what's your podcast name? So people can go and listen.
Phil:Yeah, it's called it's called meats pad. Um, it's kind of a funny name, but, it was originally, an idea of, of my, my cohost and, uh, the founder of meats pad, dr Francisco Nahar. and, uh, I think I was, I was maybe interview number two or three, uh, on there. And, uh, and when we, when we stopped recording, he and I just kept talking and talking about, Ideas and how we need to get the message of meat out to even our meat processors. And that's kind of what it's, what it's for. And so, you know, if you want to learn more about meat science and even just the business side of what it is that we do on the processing side, um, that's a good, uh, Podcast to go to it's available at all the usuals. And, um, uh, yeah, so meats pad and, uh, and we have a, a, an email. If you have any questions about meat science at info at meats pad. com and yeah, reach out and come hang out with us.
Matt 2:Awesome. I'll put that on there. And then where can we, or where should we get, it's not a cow.
Phil:Yeah. Oh yeah. Great. Yeah. So it's not a cow. Um, uh, it's, uh, it's available on Amazon, um, Barnes and Noble, um, uh, Barnes and noble. com. Um, we're actually a bestseller for about a week there on, on that list, which was kind of cool. Um, yeah. And, uh, and then, uh, thriftbooks. com. I've also seen it there. I'm a big fan of thrift books. If you're not familiar with that particular website, if you like reading and you don't like spending a lot of money, that's a good one. Um, So,
Matt 2:I'd say that you are in good company talking to folks on this podcast if you want to, if you want to read, educate yourself and not have to spend a lot of money or time to do it. So that's probably why they're listening to this thing as they bounce along in the pickup or tractor or horse or whatever the case may be. So, well, I, uh, I would probably be that guy that kept you on here visiting for another hour or two. Uh, but. I know you've got things to do as, as do I and the listeners. So I'm going to end it there, but just thank you so much for everything you do, on a daily basis for beef producers across the nation, not just in the Pacific Northwest, and thanks for being on here.
Phil:Thank you. Thank you. It was a pleasure.
Microphone (Yeti Stereo Microphone)-1:Thanks as always for joining us for this episode of practically ranching brought to you by Dale banks, Angus. If you feel inclined, leave us a comment, tell us how we can do even better. like us sheriffs subscribe. We're continuing to see great growth of the podcast. We love hearing from our listeners and getting those good ideas for guests like Dr. Phil. So if you've got an idea in that regard as well, send them our way, we can't promise to get everybody on, but I always liked that input from listeners. So stay warm, take care of yourselves this winter and spring during calving and sale season. And we look forward to talking again in two weeks.
