Practically Ranching
Join Matt Perrier as he visits weekly with interesting, thoughtful, entertaining individuals within the beef community. Conversations will inspire curiosity and creativity while maintaining the independent spirit and practical nature for which ranchers are known.
Practically Ranching
#61 - Dave Lalman, Finding Forage-Efficient Cows
Dr. David Lalman is a professor and Extension Beef Cattle Specialist at Oklahoma State University. Dr. Lalman holds the Harrington Endowed Chair with split extension and research appointment. He works primarily in the beef cattle industry focused on cow/calf and stocker cattle production. His extension and applied research program includes beef cattle nutrition and management with emphasis on beef cattle grazing and genetic by environment interactions in beef production systems. His program goals are to provide producers with information and decision tools to facilitate production system profitability, improve cow herd efficiency and to improve product quality. At Oklahoma State, Dr. Lalman serves as the Animal Science Extension Program Coordinator and the supervisor for the Range Cow Research Center.
Identifying-Forage-Efficient-Cows-Lalman-BIF-2024-1.pdf (beefimprovement.org)
david.lalman@okstate.edu
Thanks for joining us for episode 61 of practically ranching. I'm your host, Matt Perrier. As always the podcast is sponsored by Dalebanks, Angus Eureka, Kansas. Your home for practical profitable genetics. This was a really cool discussion with a guy who is a bit of an individualist-- some might even call him a rebel-- in the research community and in my opinion, I think that's kind of refreshing today. Dr. David Lalman got his undergraduate degree at Kansas state university. He did his master's work at Montana state and received PhDs and ruminant nutrition and beef reproduction from the university of Missouri. Today. He is a professor and extension beef cattle specialist at Oklahoma state. He works primarily in the beef cattle industry, focused on cow calf and stocker cattle production. His extension and applied research program include beef, cattle, nutrition and management, with emphasis on beef cattle grazing, and genetic by environment interactions and beef production systems. It's program goals are to provide producers with information and decision tools to facilitate production system profitability, improve cowherd efficiency and improve product quality. At Oklahoma state Dr. Lalman. And serves as animal science extension program coordinator and the supervisor for the range cow research center. Over the past few years, he's been doing several research projects relative to forage utilization of beef cattle, as well as their feed intake and associated outputs in terms of milk and weaning weight and weight gain. And our family and ranch has been very interested in this work. Uh, we've even supplied some of the genetics for the program over the past several years. If you have ever experienced issues with thinner or harder breeding cows than you thought you used to see, or calf weaning weights that don't seem to keep pace with their sires increasing EPDs... I think this discussion is going to be pretty interesting. We mainly talked about, uh, Dr. Lalman's research on forage utilization. But if you stick around to the end of the discussion, he drops a couple of really interesting, possibly contrary, observations that may dispel some of these age old beliefs that smaller cows are more efficient and lower milking cows are more efficient. So stick around, let us know what you think about this conversation. And thanks as always for joining us this week to hear from Dr. Dave Lalman.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:Tell us a little bit about this forage efficiency project that you've been working on and um,, what you've been up to with that
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:Yeah, sure. over time, we've kind of fine tuned the characterization of our research project to forage use efficiency, because if we just talk about cow efficiency, while, you know, I, I think our work falls under that umbrella, cow efficiency includes a, a lot of difference. things and pretty, pretty deep water as I heard some of my colleagues describe it at times. And that's, that is definitely true, uh, but there aren't too many groups in the country working on forage utilization efficiency. And so, you know, that, that's why we have chosen to focus on that area because it's just not, um, a lot of people doing that. And You know, Matt, the cow herd uses about 74 percent of the feed energy needed to produce one pound of carcass weight. And so it's kind of a surprise when people learn that a lot of the, you know, there's not a lot more feed energy used post weaning. Uh, but the truth is, is that the cow calf segment of the industry uses by far and away the majority of the feed energy. And of course our cows, I, I tell people that our cows in Oklahoma here wind up with about two months of good quality forage and 10 months of marginal to low quality forage. And that's not true in all parts of Oklahoma. Uh, but it is. it is for a good bit of it. So that's kind of the general idea and, and kind of where, you know, what we've been working at.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:So three fourths of the energy required to make a pound of carcass weight is required from weaning forward., I guess weaning back, if you're going chronologically, but uh, from, from breeding to weaning time for that calf. And yet, nearly every single project and every single conversation that we hear about feed efficiency, it's always at a feed yard level. Why is that? Is it just because it's a low hanging fruit, or why is that?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:yeah, I, I think, uh, depend on how you, how you define low hanging fruit. Uh,
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:Lower, I
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:I mean, I mean, honestly, it's, it was a good place to start and it's not that difficult today to measure. We still don't know how to measure forage intake. in a, in a pasture. But we do know how to do it on an animal in a pen. And so that's why we started there, because the industry developed these tools twenty five, maybe getting close to thirty years ago now, to measure individual animal intake in a pen. And so I think that's the answer to your question is, uh, that, that's where we started because that's what we could measure. And, yeah, you could measure forage intake in a cow herd, but, uh, gosh, the, uh, our work is with long stem, dry, unprocessed hay. And, uh, We would rather be doing this work in the pasture, but we don't know how to do that yet. And so, this was, we thought, as close as we could get, and, and, you know, over time we'll be able to try to, try to validate the data to see if we get the same ranking of animals out in the pasture compared to the answer we get in the pen feeding nothing but dry long stem hay and mineral. But a lot, a lot of the, there have been a lot of forage efficiency papers published, Matt, but they've, they all are processed forage, you know, that's been ground or chopped. It's generally some type of silage. It's wet and relative high in energy. In other words, harvested around the boot stage, maybe even prior to, or just a little after. It's not very mature forage. And many times it's got a concentrate component. Well. You know, uh, well aired corn silage is 50 percent corn grain on a dry matter basis for crying out loud, and some of the, uh, some of the forage efficiency papers published are with corn silage and alfalfa haylage. And, you know, I guess my point is our cows just don't see that kind of a diet for, for very long. Yes, a month or two out of the year would be similar, but beyond that, yeah, not, not too much.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:So give us the nuts and bolts of how you're doing it. What kind of logistics, uh, where those cows are, how they're being fed, how you're measuring, uh, are they getting any concentrate? I mean, it sounds to me like you're trying to mimic what I would call a practical, basic form of, of running a set of cows out on pasture where when, at the right time of the year, all of their nutrition is coming from mother nature off of the ground, i. e. grass. At a few times of the year, they may be getting some supplemental protein, possibly even some delivered hay or other energy sources, but you're trying to mimic what most of us are out here doing 12 months of the year of those cows and yet still measure every bite that they consume. How are you doing?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:mean that's the idea. Um, some would argue that You know, the system we've come up with is, is not ideal, but, uh, I, I would challenge those, those that, that make those comments to, you know, would just, just show us how we could do it and get closer to that, you know, real world, uh, scenario. The, I guess the first thing to say would be that, uh, we are testing and generally these testing periods, uh, are about 90 to 95 days, okay, each period. Uh, we have a, uh, trying to use a minimum of 21 days to allow the animals to adapt to the pens, the individual intake feeding system that we have developed, or, or developed in collaboration with, uh, company. And then, uh, we start off, weigh the animals, uh, a couple of times, two days in a row, so that we know, you know, very close to what their starting weight was, and then we test those animals for 70 to 75 days after the adaptation period. And again, uh, our diet so far has been, uh, long stem, dry Bermuda grass hay. And we're using Bermuda grass because we can harvest Bermuda grass high enough protein concentration so that we don't have to feed a concentrate supplement or a concentrated, you know, oilseed meal, cotton seed meal or soybean meal or something like that. And so, so far the cattle have gotten straight hay and mineral. And that has been their diet. We are testing replacement heifers a few weeks after weaning. So they're in there for about 90 days. And then we pull the heifers out, kind of clean the pens up again and start over with a set of lactating fall calving cows. Uh, and they go in the pens when they're lactating four year old, so this would be their third calf. Uh, and then we test them for about 90 days, the same 90 day period. We, we pull those calves off of them, wean the calves, let the cows dry up for a few weeks, and then pull them back into the pens and go right back into a gestation period study for another 90 days. And so the idea is that. By the time we're finished here, doing this over several years, each, each contemporary group will have a, uh, heifer phase, uh, set of data. lactation phase intake and performance data and gestation phase intake and performance data. And, you know, the, the first step we thought we ought to try to solve is whether or not it's repeatable, uh, among those stages. There's no point in spending a lot of effort and and, uh, expense testing heifers if it doesn't relate to a lactating cow. Right? And so we thought that we'd better make sure that, that it does follow through and so far it seems like it does. And there's been recent publications to sort of back that up and say, yeah, we can, we can probably get the information we need to find forage efficient cattle by testing the heifers on a, on a forage diet.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:And how are you measuring the intakes on those individuals?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:So we have, uh, we are working with, uh, C-Lock Incorporated with their, um, individual intake, uh, technology. Uh, it, it's much, if you're familiar with the GrowSafe system, it's a, it's a feed, feed intake bunk similar to that. You know, the system uses, uh, uh, frequency identification tags. When the animal puts their head in the feeder, the RFID reader time stamps the data to indicate that animal, you know, the time, the date, uh, that that animal approached the feeder. And then when they back out, it time stamps it again. And then of course these units have load cells on either side. of the little feed bunk and the difference in weight from the time the animal put their head into the feeder and the time they put their, pulled their head out of the feeder is what it, what it measures as their feed intake for that, uh, eating event. And so You know, that's the basic technology. Now we had to modify the feeder. We bought the largest bunk stainless steel bunk C-Lock had available. So they're large units because we knew we were going to be feeding long stem dry hay. And, you know, if you try to put very much long stem hay in one of those smaller bunks that, that can accommodate a concentrate diet, which of course is dense, packed, it's usually wet. You can get a lot of pounds down inside that bunk and may only have to feed once a day. I think a lot of people who do the feed efficiency work do only have to feed once a day. But, uh, the, uh, the density is, as you would know, is of hay. is not, is, is pretty low. And so you would wind up having to feed three, four, five times a day in order, otherwise you put a lot of hay in those bunks and the cows are just going to root it out and shove it out into the feed alley. So we built, we, we built, we used, purchased the largest bunks and then we built a basket to install on top of the bunk. if the basket looks a little bit like a horse stall hay feeder. So it's kind of angled and you drop, we drop the hay in, uh, in the top of the basket, which again is resting on top of this C lock bump, bunk. The angled part of the horse stall hay feeder is actually a swinging gate. So we can set it to where the bottom of that of that angled gate is wider so there's a little bit of an opening at the bottom and more hay can drop down into the C-Lock bunk unit or we can pull it up tight so that the animals have to reach up and pull the hay out of that top angled portion like you see in a horse stall. and the idea was to, you know, force the animals to pull the hay through the bars. of, of that feeder in front of their face and above them, and then anything that was dropped from their mouth or pulled out and just, you know, normally would, would hit the pen surface outside of the feeder. Well, that adds to your experimental, uh, error.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:Loss.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:And, and so, Now, the way we have this designed, the hay that drops from their mouth drops in the bottom of the feeder and, you know, it does not, it reduces our error substantially.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:And how many cows or heifers, uh, lactating cows as opposed to gestating cows can you test at one given time?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:Yeah, so that's another interesting part of our research program. We've discovered and makes it more challenging because we have to use a low stocking rate on these feed intake units. A lot of the folks doing You know, the wet, more dense, concentrated, concentrated type diets are stocking those somewhere between six to eight animals per unit, per feed intake unit. We have, we stock ours at about three to three and a half. animals per intake unit because a cow consuming forage wants to spend a lot more time, needs to spend a lot more time chewing, you know, masticating, uh, that forage and it just takes more time to consume a certain unit of weight. And so they want to spend four to four and a half hours a day in their eating. And so therefore, let's say if you had six animals six cows per feeder and each cow wanted to spend four hours in that feeder, that feeder should be full 24 7, right? 24 hours a day. Well, that means you're radically modifying some of those animals behavior and forcing them to eat through the middle of the night. And so, that's why we backed it way off to three and a half because we want it to be more practical and, and, you know, let those cows sleep through the night, if that's what they choose to do, uh, because they've had adequate access throughout the early morning, middle of the day and late in the evening to consume all the forage they wanted to consume. so we have 15 of these units and, and so at three to three and a half, you know, we're, we're somewhere in the neighborhood of, yeah, 50 plus or minus.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:So, pretty, I mean, a pretty good jag. I mean, it's, I didn't want folks thinking, well, they're just doing six cows or something. Uh, and you've, you know, Of course, this goes without saying to anybody that's done any genetic research projects, but these are known origin, known pedigreed cows that, um, for the most part, you can go both backwards and forwards as they have calves entering the herd, uh, but you know who these are and you can make some of those genetic ties not to get too far ahead of the logistics, but, um, these aren't just, run of the mill commercial cows that you're just curious about.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:Yeah, no, I mean, we have pretty good records on these cattle for, I mean, you know, we've raised all of these cattle on, on the, at, at the research station there. And so, yeah, we do have pedigree information. We have genomic data on all of these cattle. So, yeah, absolutely.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:So on the intake side, I think we've gone through that from a production standpoint on the output. Um, what all are you measuring there? Obviously weight gain and body condition score and things like that on the cows. Milk, pounds of calf, etc, etc. What are you collecting?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:Yeah, so during the lactating phase, we do milk these cows about every three, once every three weeks. Um, and you know, of course there we also take a sample and have it analyzed for, uh, protein, fat, lactose, uh, and then of course, you know, we get other values as well. with that, but, uh, so milk components, milk yield, that allows us to calculate total milk energy, uh, and then we try to do several things to estimate body composition. Uh, the main thing would be ultrasound. data at the beginning of each period and at the end of each of these 70 day tests, 70 75 day test periods. And then we also do the same with body condition scores. We actually find that rather than ultrasound on a cow that's not extremely fleshy, the body condition score system works a little better. Because you know, an ultrasound on a cow that's, say, a body condition score of 4, she doesn't have much back fat. And it's really difficult to distinguish between, you know, if she might've doubled her back fat and still have almost no back fat.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:Sure.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:So it's just, it's just not sensitive enough a system to pick up substantial difference. But when we use body condition score, actually, the data makes, kind of makes sense. we can document body condition score change and look back and see if their body condition influences feed intake, and it does.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:Yeah, I think. I think so many of those things as we start trying to measure and quantify and characterize, especially with some of the, I hate to say it, but more production oriented or performance oriented measures, um, They may not get at, especially if they were developed for feed yard cattle, they may not get at what it is that we truly need on the cow side of things. Uh, to measure what it is that she is doing, uh, can do, needs to do, and, and then figure out is she getting enough to actually get it done.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:Yeah, yeah, our, our challenge is going to be figuring out a way to expand this work, you know, in other words, identify cattle that are real for efficient forage users without having to go through one of these labor intensive feed intake tests that, that we're conducting now that, that is our real challenge in the future, but I mean, we have learned a lot and it's, you know, to me, it's, it's very exciting. the amount of variation we see in each contemporary group. The, you know, the, we call them the wonderfully terrible cows that we find and the, and the amazing rock star cows that we find. Matt, we have found little cows that come in, you know, good fleshing cows but they eat a lot. And we've found big cows that don't really eat very much and are able to maintain their body condition. Now in general, if we're talking just about cow size, sure, as cows get bigger in general, you know, our data lines up with everybody else's and that is that bigger cows eat more feed. But, it's, it's not always true. There's a substantial amount of variation there. And just, just from a forage use efficiency standpoint and your comment about measuring things that are, you know, more related to post weaning production rather than the cow calf segment of the industry. I mean, we've got just this last winter, my current master student did a really neat study. I mean, just what we described with lactating. period first, followed by gestation. And he's got one cow in that data set that ate five or six more pounds more than she should have based on her productivity. As I recall, she was, she was supposed to, should have eaten 33 pounds. She was consuming 38 on average. So she was a big eater. She, she was not a very big cow. She did not give very much milk. And she was losing weight. And eating, eating more than she, than the group average, okay? So I don't, I don't know how many more things you could do wrong. But she's one of those wonderfully terrible cows. You really couldn't tell by looking at her. And then in the same contemporary group, he has another cow that, uh, yeah, she's about a group average in, in mature body weight. Uh, but she is, let's see, she should have been consuming about 20 or 33 pounds. And she was actually only consuming throughout the entire study average. twenty eight pounds a day, and very consistently consuming less forage than all the rest of the cows in the group, or the average of the group. Uh, this cow is producing a lot of milk. She is gaining weight. Now think about that. She's producing a lot of milk and gaining weight at the same time, yet eating less than average. How much better could it get? What more could you want? Uh, I mean, if we add fertility to that, I mean, you've got a, you've got a cow that, uh, you know, is what I would call an efficient forage utilizer.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:So any of my geneticists and animal breeders that are listening to this, the first place they're going now is, What's the heritability of that? And have we done it long enough to know that if I select for that cow who eats less produces more milk, calf gains more weight, she stays in good body condition, gains weight herself, you know, she's going to be a upstanding citizen for me as long as she's on the feed bill. But will her replacement daughters be. exceptional. Have you done it long enough to know that or do we have any inclination of what the heritability is here?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:So, there, there's a really nice data set, um, published in, as I recall, 2020 in the Journal of Animal Science. And it was the Meat Animal Research Center Group, Dr. Harvey Freetley is the, uh, primary author, lead author on that paper. And they looked at, I believe they, um, recorded data on about 600, 600 plus, uh, as weaned heifer calves, measuring feed intake and weight gain, uh, during the, you know, replacement heifer development period, and then using the same diet, basically very close to the same diet, as a five year old. Now their cows were not pregnant and they were not lactating, they were open and dry, but they tested them again as 5 year olds. The genetic correlation for feed intake and gain for that larger group of cattle, you know, nice data set with 600 plus experimental units, uh, the genetic correlations I could pull them up here for us, but they're high, they're really good. And so that's what gives me confidence that. You know, if you can, you can test a heifer, uh, the, uh, you know, you're, you're going to find females that will make efficient cows. Okay. So here, I've got it pulled up here, Matt, the, the, uh, genetic correlation for average dry matter intake, heifer to five year old cow 0. 84. I mean, that's awesome.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:And that's heifer1234 was tested again five years later and cow1234,
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:Exactly.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:okay, had that high of a correlation. But we don't have data yet on daughters of cow1234 and are they exceptional if she was as well?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:Not that I know of. Not that I know of. The average day of the gain genetic correlation there is 0.73,
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:Okay. So yeah, pretty significant. Okay. So what about, I told myself I wasn't going to get in the weeds yet, but I'm a seed stock guy. And so I'm already getting in the weeds. What about correlations between what I would call a typical bunk fed, higher concentrate feed efficiency on a set of heifers.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:Mm-Hmm.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:correlation positive or negative that it may be, um, to your data. So if, if heifers were fed a concentrate, or I think sometimes you call it a mixed ration and developed on a, what I'd call a moderate plane of nutrition as yearlings, is there any or much correlation between that and that cow who's eaten nothing but long stem dry hay?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:Well.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:And her in, their intakes and, and efficiencies.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:probably need more work on that question. There is one French paper published that does a reasonable job looking at that question. I have, have a little trouble with that data set and we won't get into the weeds why. Uh, but there all they measured was, was feed intake, the genetic correlation for feed intake, uh, between hay and corn silage. They basically tested those two, we'll call it environments, and they had a high genetic correlation. Again, I'm a little bit skeptical about that data set. So that's where we started. That question is where we started in our, our research program, our quest to find forage efficient cattle. We thought the first thing we needed to ask was exactly that. Does ranking animals on a, one of these diets that you can fit down in one of those. smaller bunks, you know, in other words, processed, wet, higher energy, some concentrate. Uh, most of these studies that have been done with those, I'll call them, as you mentioned, mixed diets would be somewhere in the neighborhood of maybe around 50 percent roughage and 50 percent concentrate, give or take, okay? Um, and so we found, uh, seven, we found three experiments published in the paper. Addressing your question. And then we conduct, we've conducted four experiments of our own. Where we fed animals a mixed diet, like the one I just described. For that, uh, I don't know, it's ranged from about maybe a total of 60 to 90 days. And then we've fed the same animals, uh, uh, food. strict forage diet for about 90 days, uh, 60 to 90 days. And, and so, so far seven experiments. The correlation for feed intake between the two environments, or the two diets, uh, is has been moderate and positive. Okay? Now, remember, these are, these are smaller studies. These would be anywhere from maybe, maybe a hundred animals down to about fifty, fifty animals or so, and so we don't have a genetic correlation. What we have is a phenotypic correlation. Uh, but the, those correlations are in the range of 4 to maybe 7. Okay? But at least they're positive. Yeah, and, and, uh, and a decent, generally speaking, the genetic correlation is going to be higher than that. But every, every one of these studies, all seven of them, uh, that correlation has been, uh, positive. The, our, in, uh, two of our four studies, we did it with cows. We fed forage for a period and the mixed diet for a period. Half the cows started on the mixed diet, half started on forage, the other half started on Well, we did just the opposite. Does that make sense? So that, so you could sort of take out the question about compensatory gain. Um, and so that's why we did those that way. Got, got the exact same answer. The, the odd part, the thing that people have maybe a little trouble with is maybe raise, raise an eyebrow. Is it the correlation for weight gain in those two environments or those two diets? is not related. Okay, there is no correlation. Uh, in, in fact, two of the studies, two of the seven studies have a negative correlation, but the rest of them, there's no significant correlation whatsoever. Okay.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:from podcaster. Um, and anecdotally, just observing, um, cattle that we've raised, genetic, biological types that I've seen used throughout the decades. While there may not be a significant, um, well, let me go the other way. While there may be some correlation on intakes, I do think, again, just from my observation, not from a scientific standpoint, I do believe that there are cattle who can, um, Add body condition in terms of a cow's add fat and flesh in terms of feedlot steers or heifers when fed a concentrated diet but when they have to get out and work and walk and move and I don't know if it is They expend too much energy doing all the stuff Or if it is a distance thing due to structure, feet, whatever the case may be. But there seem to me to be lines of cattle that may not eat anymore in one environment or the other, but cannot keep themselves bred, cetera, et cetera, when you get them out on 10 to 15 to 100 acres of, of grass. And that's where I think that your productivity standpoint, and let's admit that, Your research, as exciting as it is to me, that this is one of the first times that we're seeing a project that is measuring intakes of nothing but dry forage, hay, Admittedly, those cows are not in big pastures. They have to be. By nature of the beast, they're in pens. And so, we may not find those either. But hopefully, we get a little closer to the types that can use the bugs that God gave them in the rumen to break those down and not just have a high concentrate diet. But I do think, I think it's worth that, saying what you said and, and, uh, yeah, some may raise eyebrows and say that doesn't make any sense, but I think there's probably practical explanations for why that is, why those, some of those cattle may not eat anymore. Um, but stay in better flesh when they're in a feed yard kind of environment.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:Yeah, yeah, I, you know, the, the idea that there's no relationship between forage gain and concentrate or mixed diet gain, I mean, that's exciting to
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:Mm hmm. Sure.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:if, so if there's no relationship, there's, in all these biological measurements, there's a bell curve. And the idea that it's lined up, the middle of the, the peak of the bell curve is lined up with zero, suggests that there are cattle up to the left of zero that can do neither very well. There are cattle in the middle, you know, probably about 60 percent of the range, maybe 65 percent of the range that are good at one but not very good at the other, you know, environment or diet. And then there are cattle on the right of the bell curve. that are good at both.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:Right.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:and that's the exciting part. I mean, there, there are cattle out there and we, we see that, that do well in both environments. And those are the ones we need to find.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:So. two questions as we try to apply what it is that that you all are finding and researching and continuing to reply to refine. Looking down the road, what do we, what do you hope to have in terms of tools if the data continues to line up, if you continue to see some of these correlations between traits and we can finally select for forage utilization efficiency, whether it be in cows or stockers out on grass, Flint Hills grass, wheat pasture in Western Oklahoma, whatever the case may be. If we can find and select for cattle that are more efficient on forage, what's that tool look like? What's the ideal? I assume it's going to be an EPD and hopefully we can train genomics, etc, etc, etc. I don't want to get people's hopes up too high, but if we find enough heritability in these that we can make directional change. What will we be selecting for when we look for that?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:That's an interesting question. Uh, you know what? I, I think we already have half of what, what you're asking
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:That was going to be my next question. So you go ahead.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:So, the idea that seven experiments in a row show a positive phenotypic correlation for feed intake suggests to me that we can be using breed association dry matter intake, EPDs, now. And that, and that, again, I think that We'd love to have a genetic correlation for this question, obviously, a better one. But, uh, I think it's going to wind up being higher than what we're seeing from a phenotypic correlation. That's just kind of how those calculations work. But, um, what I suggested to a group here the other day is that, Okay, so it's too bad we don't have a camera and we can show a graph,
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:I'm not there yet Dave. I'm getting I'm closer, but I'm not Rogan just yet.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:you let me know and we'll do this again when you
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:here's what we'll do though, and I'll let you keep going, but we will link to that PowerPoint presentation, if you're willing. We'll put it here and folks can go to the notes and click it, uh, because it's, it's great info.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:and it's and it's uh also available on the Beef Improvement Federation
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:Perfect.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:as well. But, uh, so for example, uh, I, I think about now, Before we get too far down this road let me just say that forage use efficiency is, is again going to be part of a complex, uh, you know, series of decisions that have to be made, but I think this could be a big one, but understand that the cattle will be expected to check all the other boxes too. They'll have to, they'll have to be fertile, they'll have to have good feet, they'll have to have good udders, they'll have to have docility, on and on. And so, I get that. And probably, before we jump off into this, you know, you'd need to set the standard right away that they have to be fertile and they need to come in a good body condition score. Whether they eat a lot or whether they eat a little, you'd need to set that. But depending on what a person's breeding objective is, again, if you're trying to control cow costs, I think, Matt, we ought to be thinking about, and I'd be interested to hear what my genetics colleagues think about us using, um, the dry matter intake EPD as it's available today in combination with the mature cow body weight. Okay, I think those together are a very powerful tool for someone to control the appetite and feed costs in their cow operation, um, depending again on what their breeding objective is. Well, or they could use it to, to, you know, make progress on their breeding objectives. That's, that's how I should say that. But let's say, for example, we have a scatter plot bulls, which, which I do have in this presentation, uh, and, and right down through the middle of what looks like somebody kind of nailed it with a 12 gauge, right down through the middle of all that data is a line that's the, the average mature cow body weight, EPD. And right now, the industry is using mature cow body weight as a proxy to guess what their feed intake is going to be. And that is how we are trying to advise people to control feed intake or stocking rate in your, in your genetics, current and future. Uh, I think we, by adding the dry matter intake EPD, we could sort of strengthen that effort substantially. What do I mean by that? Well, if on our scatter plot, the horizontal line through the middle of all the data, you know, represents breed average for dry matter intake EPD. If you select above, the breed average, obviously you're selecting cattle probably for more growth, but for more appetite, more daily feed intake. If you select below that line that goes through the middle of the data horizontally, you're selecting for, you know, reduce, putting pressure on reducing feed intake in, in, in those animals. And so let's just say you have, you have a set of proven SIREs. Now when I say proven, the data I pulled down off the Angus website I think had to be required that they were at least 0. 5 accuracy for dry matter intake EPD and for mature cow weight EPD. Okay, so let's say we've got a group of bulls in there and in this, uh, in this graph there is a set of bulls up in the top left corner. So that means they're below average mature cow weight. pretty substantially below average. In fact, these bulls are, and they're way above breed average on feed intake. Now, if we've been able to check all the other boxes, and you know, yes, they come in in good flesh in general, we can say that we think those daughters of those sires are easy fleshing cows. But still, why would you do that?
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:Yeah.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:Why would you want little cows that eat more than breed, you know, far more, in this case, far more, than breed average. Because you're nearly guaranteeing yourself, not guaranteeing, but it's a pretty, there's a pretty strong chance that post winning performance to your calves is not gonna be great, right? Because there's a very strong correlation between growth and mature cow weight.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:But those cows are the picture of efficiency.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:well, I mean, that's, that's what we have assumed up to this point,
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:And I bring that up because we, a month and a half ago, had a. Big busload of folks from South America and they found a cow. We had them all cornered up in a pasture and they were walking through them and they found the best cow on the ranch. And, um, they were scratching her and taking videos and perfect at her and a half body condition, body condition, full body conditions score higher than anybody else. And, um, she was, she was the cover girl and I looked her up and she was. middle to bottom of the pack on EPDs and I looked up her production records and she ratioed about a 93 on three or four calves that she'd had and I mean she was a Subpar cow no other way about now. She had bred First or second AI and so there's value there. But yeah, I mean what we think we know about range cow efficiency like or not might be You Proven wrong with the information that you're starting to show us. And there may, there may be some who look the part as well. And if so, by all
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, what, what, and what we're discovering is we, you know, obviously we get to see these cattle every day, twice a day, in fact, and, and there are some, there's some cows that look the part and they're, and as everybody knows, there's some cows that, Just they're not a very good phenotype and are extremely efficient and just the opposite. It's just hard to tell by looking
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:but let me and I I shouldn't have interrupted you there because you have a great point in case people can't go to that PowerPoint presentation and look, basically, I think what you're saying is in that bottom right quadrant, you have big cows, at least bigger than average. that are likely and hopefully raising big calves that go onto the feed yard and produce big carcasses and they're actually eating less than the average and hopefully as long as, as you said, as long as they're able to stay in the right body condition to breed and do their job, um, we may, this idea that we got to select for little cows may not necessarily be right from an intake standpoint, correct?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:yeah, I think we've, there are efficient
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:can do both.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:in that bottom right quadrant. That's right.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:Okay.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:And, and, you know, think about the extra income from a cold cow standpoint all by itself. I mean,
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:Oh yeah, especially today.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:today, you know, 300, 400 pounds of additional cold cow and our weight to sell is tremendous. So, yeah, that. I think we can be doing that now and using those two genetic tools in combination, I think right now is a powerful tool. they, we need more phenotypes reported on those two traits in our industry. And I think, you know, this type of information, this potential use of it, really underlines the need for more of that, more of that data.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:Yeah. And, you know, you mentioned your proven sires level of accuracy of a 0. 5. You know, number one, it's hard to find a lot of proven sires with dry matter intake data, uh, because that is. Relatively expensive to get, you've got to have a Grow Safe or C Lock or who, whomever, whatever brand you choose, you've got to measure that feed and submit those phenotypes. And, um, uh, while we have looked at doing that on our outfit, um, I have told myself until I know there is a very good correlation between that bunk fed, you know, 50 percent concentrate, actually less here, but. better than what they would get on pasture related back to the forage utilization efficiency. I'm not there yet. I don't feel like we can, can afford to measure that. But the other thing that's disheartening to me is you go over to the mature cow weight in nearly any breed, including Angus, unfortunately, and It's pretty sparse as well. Um, for numerous reasons, but, um, you know, part of which I don't know that we always want to admit just how much our cows weigh, but if what you're telling us is accurate, as long as she's Eating at or less than the average. Um, I hate to say the bigger, the better, but there's not as much of a, negative concept on these bigger, mature cow weights, uh, as long as they're doing everything else they need to do well. But yeah, that's the need for data in both of those traits. One is very cheap, mature height, weight, and body conditions don't cost a thing. They're in the shoot already as you're pregging them or whatever, right there at weaning time. Uh, My, hope is that, uh, all breeders will start submitting that. The more expensive one, the tougher one to get at is dry matter intake. But, uh, but we do, thanks to genomics and core, you know, things that they have been able to do there. Uh, we can, we can get these, this information even without necessarily investing to, uh, to record all that intake data.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:it's gradually getting better as time goes by. And that's good. Now, the second part of what this looks like, that was your original question, uh, I think actually. is not that difficult. Now, yes, if we can't get a mature cow body weight phenotype, uh, turned in, you know, it, it may be, but I mean, you know, drier, uh, years, more drought, more heat is going to increase people's interest in this kind of work, Right, Because, yeah, so, But what I'm getting at is that, um, if there's no correlation between forage intake and concentrate diet or mixed diet intake, for crying out loud, weigh the animals when you turn them out, give them 70 to 90 days and weigh them again on grass, right? I mean, how difficult will that be to generate? Um, and so, you know, perhaps if you're a seed stock industry, a producer that has a breeding objective to find and improve cattle that are very efficient at forage utilization, what you need to do, I think, is identify a time period where it's logical and practical to do that forage test. My suggestion would be not to do it during the lush grass growth. time of the year. Do it like in the fall when the forages mature and becoming senescent or do it through the winter or something. Now, you know, the more concentrate you're having to supplement those cattle, the more you kind of, uh, muddy the data set. because, you know, you don't know if the cow that's chasing the cake feeder is getting 10 pounds of supplement when she's only supposed to be getting two, and that's why she performs better. But for your replacement heifers, you know, if you can find a time of the year where you have moderate to below moderate forage quality, I think all we need is a series of data, uh, to, and yes, we need to look at the genetic correlation. for that weight gain compared to, let's say, a bull test diet weight gain. And we're, we're going to try to get that done here in the next couple of years. But, I think,
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:to make sure I understand all you're saying is, you're going to assume that, for this type of, of, I guess, dumbed down, uh, forage test, you're going to assume that everybody intakes the same. And let's just find the ones that gained on a single Low quality forage out in the pasture from the time they were turned out until the time they came into the feed yard or whatever the case may be, and just make all the assumptions that everybody ate the same and we will make directional change just because we find the ones that stay in, that are able to convert grass into meat, in this case, or flesh.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:For the most part, I think you've got it there. But I, yes, I think all we need is to record a phenotype for moderate quality forage
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:With
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:gain. But, Matt, what I'm saying is, rather than doing an efficiency test, we use the genetic tools available for feed intake, for the feed intake piece. Yes. Yeah. and, and we can use that piece to control intake or cost. And then we can use the average daily gain on moderate to low quality forage to find animals actually that can perform on forage.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:Well, it's pretty exciting stuff. Um, especially if we are able to find some of these genetic correlations that enable us to use something that's a little more cost effective to collect in terms of intakes on a, on a bunk type fed ration and extrapolate those out to the pastures and the ranges across. What, uh, what has surprised you the most? As you've looked at this data and as you've gone through this project, what's something that you thought you were pretty confident that you'd find that maybe you didn't.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:Well, the, the lack of correlation for weight gain on those two different diets was a surprise, no doubt about it. Um, so that would probably be number one. Uh, the second thing is, is a paper we published several years ago, Matt, and it's kind of unrelated to the current conversation, but yet, but yet it's important piece as we're considering how to, you know, select cattle for, uh, ranch profitability. And that is, and I know you've seen this data, but we evaluated the Superior Livestock Video Auctions data and discovered that, you know, We use projected delivery weight on un weaned lots of calves, un weaned sale lots. And we discovered that those professional superior representatives stopped expecting those calves weaning weight to increase in 2006 and 2007. And since then it's been flat. And so once we, once we saw that, I got to looking for other data sets to see if that was going on in the seed stock industry. And so the Angus website publishes phenotypic, trend, in Bulls and Heifers and so does the Charolais website. And if you plot those two phenotypic trends over time, they both show the exact same, uh, uh, trend. And that is, as time goes by, uh, those weights, those weaning weights are stabilizing and they stabilize. Actually, maybe it started to stabilize, actually, maybe a little bit before 2006 and 2007. So what's the implication? Why is that important? Why was it a surprise? Well, you know, if you look at the at the genetic trend for selection for yearling weight growth, we just, we continue to head north, right? Very aggressively. But if, if you are a rancher that sells your calves at weaning and your weaning weight has not changed for 15 years, uh, you probably need to re evaluate your priorities in, in selection criteria and make sure, you know, obvious, the obvious, I guess, sign would be that you need to be trying to control cost more than trying to increase, uh, uh, weaning weight for, at least. So that, that was a big surprise and continues to be, but the other side of that is we take those same calves, maybe that don't wean any, don't weigh any more weaning now than they did back in 2006, 2007, and we take them to the feed yard and take the lid off the environment and, and they just explode. So, yeah, if, if you're, if your trend has stopped increasing over time, You know, it really points to the need to develop, uh, some sort of a, you know, a way to capture that improved genetic value of those post weaning traits.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:Well, at 55 minutes, um, into this supposed to be one hour podcast, you just brought up a, uh, a topic that I think I could probably have a second two hour podcast on. Um, but I don't want to leave folks hanging too far because that, that is a discussion that I've had with a few folks over the last couple of years. And. As I have thought about this and looked at those same genetic trends mapped over the actual weaning weights and I think Superior's data would be even more indicative of what we see on the, in the hills of, of commercial cow calf America. I guess my question would be, who is at fault for that? In terms of us having higher genetic trends and more capabilities of those calves to weigh more and yet they don't. And I would say it's mother nature.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:that was my point.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:Yeah. And, and what we have done, no, you, you said it perfectly. I just think, because sometimes not all of us figure, not all of us get this right off the bat, but the, the engine is big enough to make 750 and 850 pound. Weaning weight calves. And yet, there are not very many of us that are willing to feed that cow and or that pair to get them to that. And so consequently, and this is where this is where I may say some things that'll either get me in trouble or make people really scratch their head. I don't know that we as an industry realize what that cow is doing in an attempt to meet the genetic, ability that she has. When she's limited by Mother Nature and can't eat even in the most lush of forage environments for that two or three, four month period, like you said, that it's probably good enough or at least close for her to meet that, um, genetic potential, but the other nine or 10 months, it's not.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:Yep.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:I think she's doing some things like Not getting bred, like sloughing an embryo, so many of the things that she didn't used to do. Because she didn't still think, hey, I've got to go farther. I've got to make more milk. I've got to grow more. Uh, this cat, you know, all of these different things. I worry that sometimes we've overshot the runway. And depending on your costs of feed and the value of that carcass, if we go clear to the end,
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:Mm hmm.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:fix that one of two ways. You either quit pushing the edge of the envelope for weaning and yearling and all this outputs. Or you say, you know what, feed's not that expensive. I'm going to give her everything she needs. And, and we've got camps on both sides of that equation that have said this is the answer. I don't know which one is right. But I do know that if you don't know, do one or the other, um, we are left with a set of cows that's A little thinner, a little higher open rates, um, you know, all the stuff that we talk about in the hallways at every BIF meeting and everything else because these cows know what they're supposed to be doing. These calves know what they're supposed to be doing and when we don't have enough nutrients to get it done. The wheels start falling off. Either they get sick more often, they don't breed, whatever the case may be, and, and, yeah, it's, again, it's another hour to two hour conversation, um, but I think some of the work that you all are doing there is, is, is showing us that, um, the genetics may be there, it's just, do, Mother Nature and, and producers, Give them what they need to, to actually express that.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:yeah, it's again, it's a complex, you know, biological system, ecosystem, however you want to look at it, and uh, it's, it's a real challenge to come up with all of those answers we would need to determine the factors that influence their efficiency in a, you you know, no holds bar kind of feed environment. But, uh,
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:Sure.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:the other thing I guess I'd say, Matt, the last thing I'll say that has really surprised me. That was your question. What's really surprised me. And I mentioned this out at the BIF meeting this year. We published a paper here a couple of years ago where we, we sort of proved, I've sort of proved myself wrong. And that is
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:it when that happens.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:Yeah, well, turns out I do that a lot. Um, wind up, wind up being wrong. But, uh, um, We did a very, and I'll just cut to the chase here, but we did a very intense experiment where we looked at the amount of feed intake required to maintain a lactating cow's body weight. And so, bottom line is we put a, and it, we only used 24 cows for this study because it was so intensive, but we put cows in a stall barn and we fed them a certain amount of feed. weighed them every week. If they gained weight, we dropped the amount of feed she got. If she lost weight, we bumped the amount of feed she got. Well, a hundred and, I don't know, a hundred and five, a hundred and ten days later, we knew exactly how much feed it took for each one of those twenty four cows to maintain their body weight, okay? Body weight and body condition. These were lactating cows. We also milked them every three weeks like we normally do on these studies. Okay, so what did we learn? Well, the National Academy of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine has published in print for many years now that if you continue to select for growth and milk production, you're going to increase maintenance energy requirements. Okay, well that makes sense. Holstein cows have higher maintenance energy requirements than beef cows. Uh, but in our study, uh, we actually found that cows that gave more milk and were able to maintain their body weight and body condition on less feed had lower maintenance requirement. Exactly the opposite of what the National Academy of Sciences book says. And I thought we'll never get this paper published, but we did. We were, we were able to get it published. So apparently there are other scientists out there that at least agreed with the methodology that we used. And actually might have been, might have been thinking that, in fact, I know, I know one scientist is one of, one of the, the world's best beef cattle energetics people, and he'd been kind of telling me all along, I mean, his idea was that in a beef animal, you know, you don't have 120 pounds of milk. pounds of milk. You have, you have cows that give 10 pounds of milk and cows that might give up to 40 pounds of milk. And his point was that range in production is not going to be enough to affect, uh, maintenance energy requirements where we're at right now. Um, Yeah, maybe if we selected for milk for a hundred years we might get there, but anyway at the end of the day it looked to us like, and this is what we put in that paper, cows that had, had lower maintenance requirement, well cows that were able to produce more milk and require less feed had more energy left over. once they took care of their maintenance to do the productive things. Well, productive is gain weight and produce milk. And so they had more energy left over to do that. It's not that they had higher maintenance, it's that they had lower maintenance and therefore extra energy to do the productive things. So that was pretty cool and it was a big surprise.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:Yeah, that's I mean, I just you name it these these mindsets we have about low maintenance females. Also quite often being low production females, in terms of weight or milk or whatever the case may be. Um, their actual net energy for maintenance might actually be higher than the productive ones.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:Yeah,
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:It's just that those productive ones may need a little more feed to actually produce. So, yeah, when you say it's a complex ecosystem or a complex biological system, um,
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:Yeah.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:I mean, that's, that's why cattle production, that's why seed stock, genetic production and evaluation and selection and, and even management decisions, how much and whether to feed or not. Um, that's why they're so tough. That's why you can't just look at an EPD and say his yearling weight is, you know, Plus 100. And so they're going to weigh this. There's so many things besides just environment feed and everything else that go into that. And all we can do, I think, is cattle producers that are either feeding the system or feeding the progeny out of these genetics, uh, is, is stay abreast of trends and research and things like what you're doing there and, and try to figure out tools that help us get where we're going. So. It's been a great discussion, and I'm serious. I'm gonna I'm gonna put a link. I hope if it's all right with you a link to the one of those PowerPoint presentations, either the 5 80 conference or B. I. F. Or which whichever one you think would would be, um, the best for that. And I may even also put your email in there if you don't mind and see if anybody has further questions to reach out. But yeah, this has been a great discussion. It's got a little deep at times in terms of some of the some of the genetics information for folks that maybe aren't in that business. But but hopefully good information to think through for all of us.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:Yeah. Well, I appreciate the opportunity to share some of the work that we're doing. It's exciting and look forward to, you know, making progress as we go along.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429:You bet. Well, we appreciate being part of it and, uh, appreciate you sharing that and, uh, yeah, we'll, we'll keep abreast of findings in the future.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024_150430:Thank you, Matt.
Microphone (Yeti Stereo Microphone)-1:Thanks again for listening to practically ranching brought to you by Dale banks, Angus, as we've said before, if you like what we're doing here, give us a five star rating, drop us a comment and be sure to follow us, to hear future episodes. As soon as they're out. And be sure to make plans to join us for our annual bull sale, november 23rd at the ranch Northwest of Eureka, Kansas. If you'd like to receive a catalog, drop me a note at mattperrier@dalebanks.com. God bless each of you. We'll talk to you again in two weeks.
