#68 - Bill Bowman, Genetic Tools and the Methods Behind Them

Bill Bowman works with Method Genetics, LLC, in St. Joseph, MO. Through the years, Bill has worked in a variety of roles within the Angus breed, from the production to association levels.

In this episode, we talk about the early days of multi-trait indexes, the move to genomic-enhanced EPDs, how commercial producers can benefit from the use of indexes; and finally, a few trends that Bill envisions as the beef industry moves into the next decade or two.

https://youtu.be/uEf7iJRWvSU

https://www.methodgenetics.com/

Transcript

Microphone (Yeti Stereo Microphone): 0:05

Thanks for joining us for episode 68 of practically ranching. I'm Matt Perrier and we're here thanks to Dalebanks Angus, your home for practical profitable genetics since 1904. Bill Bowman is one of the most intelligent guys I've ever met. Bill's quiet, humble demeanor won't allow him to boast about it, but his ability to recall facts and figures and distill data into really useful information for beef cattlemen is impressive. Actually, it's pretty scary at times. Uh, bill and I touch on our 30, over 30 year history at the outset of this, so I won't spoil it, but suffice it to say that bill started out as my mentor and then my coworker, and then my boss, and most importantly, he became a better friend with, with each passing year. Bill took a bit more diverse path to his current job in the animal genetics and breeding space, and bill touches on this history as we pick up this conversation here, but I think it's this fairly non-traditional course that allows bill to approach genetic tools with, with a very practical perspective. He and his wife, Sally were recently inducted into the American Angus Association's heritage foundation. And during their time at the association bill and Sally led to the introduction of dollar value indexes in-house genetic evaluation, genomically enhanced expected, progeny differences EPDs and they helped create Angus genetics incorporated, or AGI as a subsidiary of the American Angus association. And these may seem like pretty straightforward decisions today, but I can assure you at the time they were groundbreaking and, uh, they had a lot of risks associated with these decisions. In 2014, Sally founded method genetics in St. Joseph, Missouri, and bill has continued to work with multi trait indexes and genetic evaluation through this company. I'm going to include a YouTube link in this podcast notes of today's episode and you can click it to hear bill and Sally discuss a little more in depth some of the more memorable times of their career. They're at the American Angus association. In today's episode, we're going to talk about those early days and multi trade indexes and the move to GE EPDs and how commercial producers can benefit from the use of indexes. And finally we'll touch on a few trends that bill and visions is the beef industry. Moves down the road into the next decade or two. You know, I've heard it said"if you're the smartest person in the room. You're in the wrong room." This is rarely a problem for me, especially if I'm in the room with bill Bowman. And honestly, bill might say the same thing about himself, even though it's rarely true. Uh, bill talks here in the episode about curiosity and the desire to use and make better selection tools. And in my opinion, that sums bill up pretty nicely. Always curious, always listening, always thinking. And always finding better solutions to today's challenges. It's why I've appreciated our discussions. And it's why I think you'll really enjoy this one. With bill Bowman.

Bill: 3:28

You bet, Matt. And I grew up in Northwest Missouri on a very, very small diversified farm and, my first, opportunity with the beef cattle side of the business was as a FFA project, getting some Angus heifers and so that was where my cattle, experience kind of started, ended up, going to college at the University of Missouri and, Participated like a like most in meat judging, livestock judging experience, uh, graduated there with B. S. And animal science and kind of had full intention of going to graduate school, after, at that point, and kind of was getting that narrowed down and my advisor in, college was, Dr. Jerry Lipsy, who, by then had gone to the American Angus Association and was the Junior Activities Director and Dr. Lipsy, called me up one day and said that, they actually had a position that they were taking applications for that he thought I might be interested in at Angus. And it was a regional manager trainee position. So I ended up applying for that and ultimately got that position and it was a great experience. It was in 1979. It was the beginning of certified Angus beef and a lot of things going on in the breed at the time. I had an opportunity to travel across a lot of the country with a lot of the regional managers that were there. We're in place at that time and, got to make a few field trips for CAB in the very initial, part of that program. And so, got some great exposure, was there, kind of through the fall of the year. And, there was getting ready to, be a position, open up, That I was probably going to end up as a regional manager, and I was going to be out in Kansas and Oklahoma, and this young kid from Missouri wasn't sure he wanted to in the middle of Kansas at that time, Matt, I mean, who would really. So, I ended up going to work a small Angus farm in Missouri at the time. East Central Missouri, uh, was there for a couple of years, until they sold that operation. They ended up going to Sydenstricker Genetics and was there for about 10 years, working, with Eddie, and Ben eventually at the Sydenstrickers. Ended up, taking a little spin into the sale management business with, Angus Hall of Fame. Dick Beck, Tom Burke, uh, got to see a lot of, uh, a lot of the country and, uh, and meet, a lot of people, in the angus breed and involved in marketing and sales management at that point. And so it was, uh, it was kind of a whirlwind there for a few years, doing a lot of different things and getting a lot of different experiences along the way. But things kind of take full circle. And, uh, I had an opportunity to again American Angus as a regional manager, that was with, uh, Dick Spader, would've been the executive officer at that point, and, ended up, having, the opportunity to go to work for Angus, and I ironically ended up in Kansas, Oklahoma, and Colorado as my territory, and enjoyed it immensely. So, It was a great experience, those different segments of our industry, but, really getting the opportunity to travel as a regional manager. There and in that area really exposed to some of the beef cattle production systems that I didn't have an opportunity to see beforehand when you got to thinking about feedlots and the packing industry, just the entire commercial focus and the commercial segment of the industry that you really weren't exposed to maybe in what I'd been doing beforehand.

Matt: 7:58

So that was 79 when you came in as the um, regional manager, trainee,

Bill: 8:04

trainee,

Matt: 8:05

and then Don Laughlin, our friend would have taken the RM position that you decided you didn't want any part of that. And what year was it then that Donnie moved to Iowa, Missouri, and you came in,

Bill: 8:19

Don would have taken that, Went to a different territory with Missouri and Iowa in 92. Okay. So I would have started in January of 92 with American Angus. And so I traveled as a regional manager in that. so I was born in the United States, and in that territory. I always called it seven Springs. It was fall of 98 when ended up going back to the Association office and kind of started kind of a lot of, different experiences. They're then working in a commercial programs was really what my initial, responsibilities when I moved to the office in 98, Ended up working into and helping with the performance programs, as an assistant in there, ultimately, John Crouch became the chief executive officer and ended up, working with performance programs and then, later on, we, Got involved with the creation formation of the Angus Genetics Incorporated or AGI, the subsidiary at American Angus, and so that was kind of the, kind of the Quick, quick take on experience at Angus anyway.

Matt: 9:38

Yeah. And I, I mean, I, I had a front row seat to that process and didn't know just how intertwined it was about to be with my own life because there in 79, 80 when Laughlin started as our regional manager, he was the first RM that I remember as a kid. Right. So I remember him fondly. We just, everybody just loved Donnie and he was a great R. M. and we just felt like he was part of the family. He

Bill: 10:09

always talked about, I think, one of the first times he was here was the first day you went to kindergarten, I think, was the story I've heard.

Matt: 10:17

Yeah, I think that's right. I think I was getting off the bus from my first day of kindergarten when he made his first herd visit here, which that would have been the fall of 79. And then I remember fast forward to my senior year in high school. Donny is leaving. Everybody in my family was distraught. dad asked Mr Spader or whoever was that, had hired his replacement. Well, who's gonna be our new RM? Because we love Donny and there's nobody that can fill Don issues. Well, it's bill Bowman. Well, who's he? Well, he worked for Seidenstrickers and took, what did he do for Sydenstrickers? Well, he took care of the show cattle and things like that. And then he, he worked with a sale management firm and oh my gosh, Tom Parrier was fit to be tied. We're going to have some show jock that's, that's been working for the haul. coming as our regional manager in the most beef industry focused, region. And, um, so you had, whether you knew it or not, you had an uphill battle, at least in Eureka, Kansas. I've heard a lot of stories like that. Believe it or not, we weren't, we weren't the only ones. And yet, somehow you overcame this preconceived notion that we had of somebody. And I think all of us do this in the Angus business, the beef industry. Humanity in general. We see what somebody's resume is and where they're from, part of the country, who their friends are, whatever else. And we decide, well, I know, I know what this is gonna be like. And yet you proved us all wrong. And, um, hopefully Donny's not listening to this, but became a, a, uh. close second, if not outdid our regional manager that we thought was the best R. M. Ever ever to travel the roads of Kansas.

Bill: 12:05

I think a lot of that Matt's just again, always having a curiosity about things and a desire to learn and willingness to learn. And that's where it was so neat was just the good people that you ran across the operations and It wasn't that much fun to be an Angus breeder through a lot of those years either. And so we, got to see a lot of things and see a lot of people making improvements and their programs maturing. And I mean, there was great opportunity to learn a lot in those years, driving up and down the roads for sure.

Matt: 12:46

Well, and we've, we've had a couple of regional managers since that I can't, completely throw under the bus because we'd have gone to the map for Caldwell or Mafi as well. And I think as, as somebody and For those of you who don't know, I think most listen to the podcast and figured it out. But I had that role in Texas, New Mexico for 3. 5 for four years. and sometimes you mentioned that it wasn't much fun to be an Angus breeder in the late seventies and eighties, even early nineties. And sometimes that field rep is as much of a Therapist has as he is anything. I mean, really, you've got to sit down after that sale that was a complete disaster or, after that natural disaster that happened in your herd or, or whatever the case may be, a genetic condition found that's going to take out a third of the cows. So many different things that seed stock producers have to deal with. And quite often their first call is to that regional manager and say,"What do I do?" I mean, this, this thing is we got to pitch the tent and have the dispersal sale and you all sometimes have to either help with that dispersal or talk them off the ledge and say it's going to be okay. And so it's a pretty good training ground and, very diverse set of tasks that you get to have as you go forth. So you get done with it. position. You go in as commercial programs director, which was the first time that the Angus Association had had a dedicated, or at least with that title, right? As a commercial and industry relations for a lot of years. And I guess that's right way back. I think they made years and years ago, but tried that. And so then in january 2001 was when I moved up to be your assistant director of commercial programs. And then, of course, by the following fall is when Mr Spader passed away and John took that role as CEO and everybody kind of moved up around shuffling around. Yeah. So that is where I want to pick up and talk a little bit about some of those new tools that you and Sally and others, kind of worked to create and that being these multi trait indexes. And I guess most people that are listening to the podcast are probably very familiar, at least somewhat familiar with EPDs and dollar indices. If you might just give a quick, for those who aren't in the business, a quick what's up on EPDs first? Mm-hmm And then we'll talk about why you were so dedicated and Sally was so dedicated to figuring out how to combine these into a multi trait selection index.

Bill: 15:34

Yeah. And I think we were really seeing about in that timeframe, Matt, really an evolution of genetic evaluation and seeing additional traits that we were starting to evaluate. I mean, previously it had just been the very basic birth weight, weaning weight, yearling weight, and the maternal side of it were really the traits that we were able to evaluate and they were the initial ones that, really got genetic evaluations, started for seed stock producers. and as traits developed. we saw, I mean, it was a continuous education process. And I think the thing we looked at is, a lot of commercial producers maybe were intimidated by the number of EPDs and different traits that were starting to come on board. And so we looked at indexes as really a way to try to simplify selection. With the focus being on the commercial bull buyers and trying to create a, a little simpler approach for them to utilize and selection of bulls that they were going to be using in their programs. And I think a little history on selection indexes. I mean, they'd been used for years and the swine industry, the dairy industry. And so it was relatively. And it's a really unknown and unused technology and the beef cattle business. And so, I think the Charolais association actually had a little terminal index that they came out with first. But uh, the direction of the board, I think, kind of in that 2000 and three range would have been, Working on developing selection indexes, really with that in mind of, of trying to utilize some of the new EPDs when we looked at things like the carcass traits and starting to see ultrasound technology going into, those EPDs and just trying to condense some of that information, to make it a little simpler and more user friendly for the commercial producers out there.

Matt: 17:55

As we talk about this and you said something about some, you know, the multi trait selection indexes were created with the commercial producer in mind, I vaguely remember having one of the hundreds, if not thousands of meetings that we had about creating these and what needs to go into them and how are they going to be used and, How are they going to be abused? And sometimes, I mean, we're all guilty of it as seed stock producers. We look at a, tool such as an EPD, dollar value index, whatever the case may be, and some of us, hopefully, most of us, look at it as a selection tool, as a culling tool, as a way that we can improve our genetics for our herd and for the commercial customers that we have. And yet, at some point in the time, it's going to be used as a merchandising and as a marketing tool. And, um, somebody, and it may have been you, that says, okay, it may have been Crouch or Sally, I don't know, but somebody said, the minute we put a dollar in front of this index, it's going to trump some of the single traits that are going into it, because dollars Resonate, and it's dangerous if we do that. And one of us in the room, I think, said, Why don't we just not let seed stock producers see it or use it and make it a commercial only tool? If that's who it's supposed to be for, that's the only people who get it. And of course, we all had a good laugh because you can't do that. But, oddly enough, whoever said you put a dollar in front of this and it's going to be abused was pretty accurate. It's

Bill: 19:40

probably you. Yeah. I mean, I think Matt, the thing I still look back on and I mean, I get a kick out of, we used to go to meetings, B. I. F. and different industry meetings and, and you'd have these talks about, the use of indexes and the power of indexes and, How do we get people to use them? And here we were as the Angus breed, we were probably trying to figure out how do we get them used by the people they were really intended for and, and slow things down. So I always got a kick out of going to those meetings. And I mean, that was always the topic is how do we get these producers to use these indexes? and we were like. It's, it's not a problem. How do we, how do we make them not use them quite as,

Matt: 20:31

Front and center and, and yeah. So why is that, why do you think the Angus breed and it's probably been from the first weaning weight EPD we had or adjusted 205 day weight prior to that, or EBV or whatever, why is it that Angus breeders have, have. to these tools?

Bill: 20:51

Yeah, I think it's because they, I mean, they've seen that they work, Matt. I mean, I think, and that's the commercial producers as well out there, whether it was 20 years ago or today, they see that using these tools. They're, they're very efficient means to make, general improvement. And I think that's the thing we've lost track of as well is, I mean, these tools were really select or created to, to, evaluate a population and move a population in the right direction. and that's where commercial producers have been able to use things like selection indexes to maybe take off the bottom part of, of their herd or be more specific of the, of the replacements they're going to put back in their program using some of those tools. Whereas seed stock producers, I mean, we probably need to hone in and identify those individual traits. And when we're making matings, use those individual traits, to be the most efficient in selecting, because we understand it. We understand where we need improvement on, on a set of animals and being able to use Those specific EPDs are those individual traits it allows us to make much more rapid progress than trying to use the indexes to get there. I mean indexes do a great job of evaluating Profit in in an entire system. I think because they have a a revenue as well as an expense component built into them. But you're also, there's a lot of different ways to get to the same number. And so you have to be conscious of that and knowing that, that if I need to improve mature size, I probably need to really hone in and focus on lowering mature size and. I can do it much more rapid using those EPDs or correlated EPDs, to a trait like that versus, uh, trying to use the indexes to, to get me where I need to go for my, for my particular production system and environment.

Matt: 23:12

Yeah, that's,

Bill: 23:12

that's something

Matt: 23:13

that I think that has been lost almost immediately. I didn't see seed stock producers flock to. the indexes. and forget about some of the traits as quickly as what happened. And I should have. and that's why I think we kind of said we need to just be able to not let seed stock breeders use the multi traits. They know everything about every individual for at the time, probably 11 or 12 different traits, and now 18 or 20 or whatever it is. They've got that on every cow and every bull, and when they make those matings, they need to use those, at least the ones that affect them from a production and marketing standpoint, and that are most important in their herd, and yet, I think a lot of them, they went to the A. I. Sire catalog, and they just searched for one number, dollar B for dollar, eventually W, dollar M, whatever the case may be. You'll probably shoot me for saying this, but I quite often use the indices, especially, and this is just kind of a shock and awe deal that I've used on a few breeders as I've talked to them, and they get to bashing on dollar C, which for those who aren't in the Angus world, it's dollar combined, it's the multi trait, hopefully both maternal and terminal indexes together, and if you're going to as a commercial producer, pick one trait because you're retaining your heifers and you're also retaining ownership, let's say on the set of steers and you want to be paid for the quality and growth there. And you look to dollar combined. I say when people start really, really hitting hard on dollar C, I say, well, I call it dollar cull. And they look at me and you don't like it. No, I think it's a great tool for what it was created for. But about the one time that I used dollar C in my selection is when I am figuring out who gets cut as a bull, who gets sold as a commercial heifer off the bottom end, or whatever the case may be. When it comes to the genetic portion of that, I pick a certain level of dollar combined that they have to meet and exceed. And those are the ones that get to be marketed as seed stock, or kept, retained in our herd. Now it's not just that, we look at structure, we look at disposition, and all these things, but From a seed stock standpoint, I don't know that we need to be talking about the top 1 percent dollar combined. We need to make sure that we're not making very many in the bottom whatever percentage of dollar combined. Because most of the time when we are honest with ourselves, we look across the crowd at our bull sale or the folks that are interested in, in registered females, they're a pretty diverse bunch and some of them may want a bunch of calving ease,. Some of them may want a bunch of growth, some of them may want a bunch of marbling or super low foot scores or PAP or whatever the case may be. And those multi trait type of indexes allow us to make sure that they're pretty good on things. I think

Bill: 26:21

early on, Matt, we used to talk about them being kind of the index is being kind of like training wheels or they kind of helped keep us out of the out of the ditches. And so, yeah, I think when we shifted to making them traits to really hone in to try to identify the very And so I think it's a really important thing to keep in mind when you're trying to figure out who's your top individual versus trying to like we said before, kind of knowing that we're trying to kind of shift the population of our genetics and just keep the as you described, keep the threshold in there to keep improving that average of that population down the road.

Matt: 27:06

You know, quite often again, when we get to sorting numbers. And of course, even when we're evaluating cattle, we still line them up top to bottom. And if they win their class, they're great. And if they're the bottom of class, they're terrible. And quite often it's not just that easy. They may work for somebody else, regardless of where they sit in that lineup. But, uh, I'm reminded as you're talking, especially from a historic standpoint, and you may not Maybe you still get accused of this, but I know whenever we were working for the Association, and I would assume Kelly or Esther or any number of people that are there at an association today, breed associations who provide tools to their breeders and to the commercial industry that is selecting genetics from that, that, association. Quite often get accused of telling people how to breed cattle. I know that never happened with you. No, never. John Crouch, you may occasionally listen to this. I'm sure he was never, uh, never accused of that. But it was always interesting to me that just because we coordinated the research, and yes, we had to help make final say on how, The tools were formulated with help from PhDs and geneticists and everybody else, but it was always interesting to me that just because we provided these tools and maybe wrote an article about how to use the tools and what they should tell you that we were all of a sudden, by rights telling you whether you have to use this tool or you have to have them above a certain number of that. And Yeah, I don't remember one time, that I told somebody that if you don't breed your cow herd to a bull that's above a certain number on this or that trait, but how, I mean, I think we've established that that's not the case. How do you assure folks of that, from your old days or maybe at Method Today you still have people say that? how do you sort through that for folks?

Bill: 29:12

I guess I still have always looked at it, Matt, as our job was. Our job is to characterize the genetics and you have to still understand in your operation and your your resources, your feed, your management. Kind of how those different traits need to be handled and weighted somewhat. you know, I think back, when the indexes first came out, we also, we spent a long time working on, customizable indexes because we, we were kind of encouraged that, well, they need to be. be producer specific so I could adjust the inputs and and try to create an index that was gonna be better for my operation or better for my customers. And we spent a lot of effort trying to get that tool put in place. It was put in place and it took several years and they finally decided, nobody still ever looked at it or used it because it was not the The benchmark that was, was being printed. And so I think that's the thing. Again, we get back to the individual traits behind those indexes. I mean, they're a good guide. As you described, there are good threshold to set in, in probably some selection practices, but there's still individual traits that you as an operator need to hone in on and whether it's, putting pressure on milk because of your feed resources or if it's putting, more emphasis because I'm trying to get cattle to go into a prime market, to put more emphasis on marbling or whatever the case may be. But, we, we never want to just take it all. I guess. As a grain of salt to think that this one piece is going to describe everything that we need in an operation. I think that's the other important thing to remember.

Matt: 31:14

Yeah. I have often toyed with the idea for our bull sale here, offering less of the component traits and just having your maternal index, your dollar beef index. You're probably still have to have calving ease for folks wanting to buy straight up calving ease. Sires for heifers. have you seen anybody do that? And is that from a science standpoint, forget about merchandising and marketing and all the B. S. That goes along with trying to sell those bulls. If you're just looking at it from a animal breeding perspective is a commercial producer, and I'm just going to say a typical producer who doesn't have individual records on every cow, isn't tracking weaning weights and all these things on an individual basis, but knows, Hey, I am that guy that needs to produce more prime for the grid. Or I am that guy who's trying to make replacement females and needs more fertility and function and fleshing ability and all these other things. would they be better off throwing all the individual components away and just selecting on an index like the science is indicated in other species?

Bill: 32:28

I mean, that leads to kind of what Sally and I have been doing for the last 11 years coming up on it now, Matt. I mean, really, our our focus has been to work with commercial producers and provide those producers selection tools that can utilize both genomics and phenotypic records if they have phenotypic records in their operation. But, but yeah, a lot of those producers have really just utilized the selection indexes, I think. and it's been fun to watch as they've been able to use that as I mean, they've used good bulls for years, AI and natural service bulls, that have got good genetics, but the ability for them to use those indexes to then, cut off the bottom third of their heifers or whatever in, in making, selection there and just watching the progress that they've been able to make in terms of improvement in their entire production system, because when you're selecting for an index, I may not be directly, selecting for weaning weight, but I'm I'm seeing weaning weight improvements. I'm seeing improvements in feedlot gain. I'm seeing improvements in the carcass, uh, traits as well. And so it's been really interesting to watch those producers be able to utilize, indexes. In most cases, I mean, we we offer a few little component traits, to the commercial producers, but try to keep it very simple. And most of them are just using, a Combined index for their selection of their replacement females, and it really has created a lot more consistent product in their operations, I think, as they look down the road. So as they're

Matt: 34:29

looking at that, what all, and I guess you've got varying levels with method genetics, whether they are, DNA on those commercial females and adding that to it or just using indexes off of the sires they've used. what's the best return on the least investment for them as far as, you know, if they're strapped for labor or aren't comfortable with all the genetic information and computer time that it requires to have those individual records. What have you seen that works the best or is the most return for that time involved?

Bill: 35:05

Yeah, I mean, selecting cattle, bulls that they're going to use in their operation, with whatever the tools they want to use to identify those genetics. I mean, we've just got so much. good information on genetics today that a producer can sort through. It's just like you're saying in your sale catalog. You worry if there's too much, but it's still producers can use it. And the ones that know specifically what they want particular for calving ease or yearling growth or mature size then it's there for them to evaluate and further select on I just think, uh, you know, those producers have been able to use the tools with confidence. they do what they're supposed to if I'm looking for calving ease, I can use a calving ease bull and you don't see calving problems in the Angus breed in general anymore. I mean, and so that's, that's a great testament. And I think that's why we have continued to always see the uptake in the use of the new tools and the new technologies for the breed as a whole, because it's worked, it's proven, we continue to enhance and develop. Um, and so it's been really neat to just see that, uh, I can, I can make real progress, real genetic progress by using these devices. Well,

Matt: 36:38

it's pretty evident that everybody wants, or needs, or at least thinks they want something a little bit different in genetics. Six months or so ago, I got this idea and I don't know why I listened to a podcast, which is dangerous, especially this one, but I listened to a podcast. They were talking. It wasn't even in the beef industry. They were talking about crowdsourcing data, and I think that's how they called it. But basically, instead of focus grouping where you 10 really smart people that already have a good understanding of a given task or topic and ask them to figure out what the right solution is. they send out thousands of surveys and they get better answers than they did with seven or eight smart people that should have been able to come at a more intelligent response. So I, I had this idea. I was going to send it out and crowdsource to our customer base and let them pick one of my sires for next year. And I talked to a couple folks. I don't think you were one of them, but I talked to a couple people and they're like, that's a terrible idea. What are you going to do if it's a bull that you know is not going to help them, even though they think that the majority of them picked that bull? Right. And so I kind of mulled it around. I really still like the concept. And finally I thought, you know what, I'm just going to do it on traits. And I'm not going to let them actually pick a sire, but I'm going to let them tell me what traits would be ideal, and then I'll go find the bull that has those traits. And you know, we as seed stock producers are supposed to be able to do that on our own, and we like to think that we're better at it than anybody else, but I thought this would be really good. And so, we didn't get a huge response on it. Not enough to. really run home with it. But what it told me was fascinating. Bill, I was more confused after I got the data back than when I was trying to put the thing together. And maybe that just goes to show that I'm not good at writing a survey. But I think it was pretty straightforward. But the fact of the matter was of however many dozen people that responded to this survey, there was no clear answer that everybody needs this trait. In fact, If one was the most important and nine was the least important, I had several simple busts. I mean, we had absolutely backwards from one ranch to another. And as I watched them buy bulls in the sale this year, that's exactly how they bought them. Why? Because they have figured out what so many seed stock producers, in my opinion, haven't. That is that in my environment, with my marketing scenario, these two traits that the guy down the road or across the state think aren't even worth looking at are the most important things that I need. And so it was fascinating to me and we can all cuss and discuss the independent nature of today's cattle breeders or forever cattle producers. But it's evident and that's why I think we have to have Various tools. A bull doesn't necessarily have to be the top 1 percent in every single one of them. Genetics science shows that it's not impossible, but doggone difficult to make it happen. But, yeah, they're there for a reason because different folks are going to need those. And that's where the multi trait indexes, I think, make it a lot simpler. As long as we as seed stock producers are still, you know, collecting the phenotypes and making sure that we make the components work first, and then the traits, the

Bill: 40:26

indexes

Matt: 40:27

will

Bill: 40:27

work as a result. Yeah, that's still one of the biggest challenges that we deal with today, Matt, is you put more traits in the indexes, is just the confidence level of some of those smaller phenotypic databases that go into some of those ePDs that are ultimately used in the indexes and I know heritability and weightings, can kind of control some of the influence that some of those traits have, but it's still a challenge to assess the economic impact of some of those traits in, in. What's the difference between an operation or different operations. Even month to month,

Matt: 41:11

I mean, when you see differences in cattle prices or the choice, select spread or whatever else, I mean, what may have paid you, let's just look at a terminal type of grid. what may have paid you huge dividends in April on quality grade, may be different in August. And that's, you know, that's just the nature of the beast, but we try to. Kind of work those all out through an annual average. So, again, we may be backing up just a bit, but we've talked about phenotypic traits, and of course everybody's familiar, or at least knows of, genotypes. Touch, if you will; today we have all of those things going into most of our genetic evaluations, hopefully. first, tell us the difference between phenotypes and genotypes. And then tell us which one is more important if there is or leading the witness here. Why do we need them both?

Bill: 42:10

You bet. Of course, kind of in that 2008 2009, era, we started using DNA as a portion of the genetic evaluations. Prior to that, everything was based On individual weights and measures that seed stock producers collected on their farms within a contemporary group, and that went into. Genetic evaluation that ultimately produced. Initially E. B. V. S. And then ultimately E. P. D. S. That we know today. and that you were around, Matt, with the transition, of that all being done offsite at universities by researchers to bringing it all in house, at the American Angus Association to where it was all done, the research, the actual running of those genetic evaluations was done on site. in the association, within the walls of the association, and that was a giant leap for, for a lot of folks out there, that were used to seeing universities be the only source for that information. And so, We kind of endured some challenges with that as well. I remember being

Matt: 43:30

one of those challenges, saying you can't tell me that we can take a drop of blood and know as much about it as 10 progeny or whatever.

Bill: 43:39

So, so yeah, the use of DNA and working that into the genetic evaluation along with those phenotypic, records, into EPDs. first started in 2009, I believe, would have been kind of the first genomic enhanced EPDs, we called them at that time, and ultimately now we're in a much better technology with the single step genetic evaluation, which is, using the genotypes and you're actually building a genomic pedigree on those animals because we know that, my, makeup, looking at my grandparents, Is not the same as what my brother's genetic makeup is. And so we're able to really more specifically hone in on the relationships of animals in their pedigrees, to do a much better job using both the phenotypic records as well as the genomics or the genotypes on those animals for those EPDs. And so, The genomics, from those early days and creation of AGI. I mean, to now, what are we at 1. 3 or 4 million genotypes in the Angus breed? I think now maybe it's more than that. Yeah, I haven't looked late lately, but it's exponential growth. Yeah. And so it's easily become the biggest component of our E. P. D. System. And that's where we have to rely on the fact that we've got a great representation of phenotypic data from the seed stock producers turning that in and The evolution to work into new traits and identify hard to collect phenotypes. I mean, we've got a good representation of some of the low hanging fruit, but, it's a challenge when you go to try to collect breeding records and try to collect, mature size. Records on a cow herd and things like that. But I mean, it's been fun to watch the maternal plus program and the Angus breed continue to grow and that influence. But I mean, I think we're and we both had the opportunity to go to some meetings to kind of hear about new opportunities down the road in terms of trying to collect phenotypes and in larger and mass. And I mean, it's probably gonna make us really reevaluate how we have done genetic evaluations and create these selection tools when we have the ability to collect mass amounts of data, weights, records, measurements, that we can't even imagine what all that's going to involve on, on commercial cattle and in large operations and how we can relate that back and use that. Uh, I mean, think about the swine industry, the dairy industry and their ability to use those commercial animals, commercial records to really, improve and create selection tools that have, amazing capabilities in a lot of traits that, again, we've not even, touched on of what we may measure and evaluate.

Matt: 47:07

Yeah. As you, as you talk about that and I think about how the model. the phenotypic collection and where that data comes from, commercial and seed stock, you know, all these different things and how that model would look if we created it today, knowing and having the genomic component of that, as opposed to continuing to tweak and morph that model that started back in the 50s and 60s and slowly up until the 90s when it all of a sudden blew up, kind of came to what we know today. And it reminds me of a quote that I remember. Dr Tom Field has used countless times in articles and speeches. I remember who he credited with, but I think it went,"in times of profound change. The learners inherit the earth while the learned are perfectly equipped to live in a world that no longer exists." the meetings that we've seen and heard from folks within the animal genetics and production world, basically say, if we really want to make this system work, we can't keep collecting the data in groups of five or ten with An individual animal scale that you get one reading that might be 10 percent off because they went to the water tank right before or right after or whatever the case may be, or, they were sick and we didn't know it or that calf's birth weight, he was wet or whatever the case may be, they're looking at hundreds if not thousands of observations through digital recording and walking up to the water tank and either taking a picture and doing linear evaluation and using AI to figure out what their actual weight is. And I mean, it's just mind blowing the amount of data. So if we in the beef industry could possibly make that quantum leap away from the old blup mentality of collecting weights and running them through this, you know, ratios and into contemporary groups and all, etcetera, etcetera. If we can get our heads wrapped around something different, how in the world do we manage the data, the throughput when you have a million head of cattle coming in with a million images that are making, that are making that call. I mean, it's just mind blowing to me how we're going to do

Bill: 49:41

that.

Matt: 49:41

I'm glad I'm

Bill: 49:42

too old to ever, ever get there, Matt. I'll watch you young guys. Oh my

Matt: 49:49

goodness, Bill. Guess what? At 51, I think I'm maybe too old as well as slow as sometimes the beef industry moves. But yeah, I mean, it's Um,

Bill: 49:59

no, it's a, we're not limited by the technology. It's an exciting time to see the possibilities out there, I guess, to me, and just what can really be accomplished. that's what I think is so neat when you, you get to working, the opportunity to work with commercial producers that have tried to use some of this technology They see it in the light goes on. they can understand how, if we just take this little herd, that's got 500 head in it and they can make the progress that they've made in eight or 10 years by utilizing some of the technology we have today, then I think it's exciting to think that. I mean, kind of the means to gather that information that you described. I mean, I think it's exciting and we need to be pushing forward and right in the middle of it moving forward, I think.

Matt: 50:52

And it's one of those things, like so many, that is exciting and frightening all at the same time. You bet. And, and with, with good reason. Um, we all know that there are consequences, sometimes unintended, to a, over emphasis on a trait or a series of traits. And we still have to figure out ways either through observation and common logic and animal husbandry procedures and things like that selection or figuring out how we measure Things like structure and how we measure things like range cattle ability and things like that. And I think we can get that done. but it's not worth throwing the baby out with the bathwater and just saying, well, you know, EPDs don't work anymore. And I we need to throw him out.

Bill: 51:41

Well, that's the thing we've we have learned over the years, Matt is again, give me a challenge and give me the tools and I can I can make something That's better. I can make something that will work in my environment, in my management system. I mean, again, in the early seventies, they dealt with the challenges of these EPDs, EBVs, that isn't going to work. You and I traveled up and down the road and heard how indexes, which was kind of where we started, were going to be the demise of the world. Well, guess what? You look around, the Angus breed, became pretty impactful by producers having the ability to use those indexes. I mean, yeah, would we have liked to have softened things? In some trade or some area a little bit along the way or made some better judgments. But in reality, you think about the industry and putting beef on the table for the consumer. there'd be a lot of other breeds that would love to experience what Angus has created 30 years. And so,

Matt: 52:54

and you don't have to just look at. The Angus breeds growth in numbers or even Traits within the Angus breed that have increased since those dollar indexes have come. Let's look at total industry production levels in terms of of carcass weight and marbling and all these things that quite often these commercial producers that were using those bulls weren't just looking at those component traits necessarily. it's, whether we like, some of the, again, the unintended consequences of sometimes an overemphasis on certain traits or not, it's hard to argue that EPDs can sure. For a given trait that, you're putting emphasis on. they can move the needle. and in the case of something like marbling, and we don't have time to go into a lesson on heritability estimates, but it's a highly heritable trait. one of the highest inheritability is probably of any that we do. So you can make progress even faster and something like that, or you can digress even faster if you use one that's below breed average or whatever. I can attest to that as well. So you've already kind of given us a taste for what might be in the genetics space going forth and the way that we collect these phenotypes and work them into the system. I have always held you as a visionary and you're going to Bristle up and turn red and because you're a very modest guy and don't like to admit that, but you saw things when I was working with you. I was young enough and dumb enough as a regional manager not to realize just how you saw things coming. But when I was working there in ST Joe, it was amazing to me that you'd be 5, 7, 10 years ahead of most of us that thought we were pretty smart. What do you see different? Let's just go beef industry wide. Let's not limited to just the genetic space. What do you see as the biggest two or three changes in the coming 10 to 20 years ahead for the beef industry? And you can get as wild as you want because I'm, I'm not going to make you come back on in 20 years and rub your nose in it. But that'll, that'll be a

Bill: 55:12

sure thing

Matt: 55:14

now.

Bill: 55:16

no, I don't know, Matt. I mean, I just think even in the last few years, things we've seen that we, we never thought we'd have a real grasp of with the I mean, the whole beef on dairy deal. I mean, that was something we, we had no idea was going to come down the road 10 years ago. And I mean, look at it and you look at the consistency of product that can come out of a system like that with some proper planning and Genetic selection. Yeah, there's been some challenges, but I mean, it's nothing that we won't overcome. and so we we look at you talk about the whole production improvements that we've seen in the beef cattle side of it. I mean, we keep waiting for there to be a huge drop off in the amount of beef that we have and Yeah, We've lost a couple million cows. And guess what? We haven't seen any drop in production. And so we're gonna continue. I mean, the whole efficiency side of the business is still. I mean, it's been something that we still haven't tapped into very well, especially when you look at the cow side and I mean, I don't smart enough to know how to approach it, but I know there's, there's going to be opportunities out there, that will allow us as a production system to continue to improve that. I think the whole system approach to beef cattle production, I mean, it's, it's the bull customer that latches on to Dalebanks Angus that then has the connections and the networking to help them get those cattle, moved into, the next segment of the industry and just being able to trace more of the whole production system because we haven't done a very good job of that at this point yet. And so I think I mean, it's pretty interesting to watch some of the new players in the business that are really focused on trying to do some of those exact things, but I think it's going to be key for a seed stock producer to really, figure out where he, he fits in. And when I say seed stock producer, I'm talking the people that are producing bulls, the genetics for the commercial segment of the business. I think where the Angus breed has enjoyed a lot of. of a lot of success and we'll continue to see those kind of operations are going to continue to get bigger and bigger and just the ability for them to, to not only merchandise and provide genetics, but then providing service on the other side. And we've talked about that for four years and it's, it's getting more prevalent every day.

Matt: 58:23

What about the commercial side of things in terms of size, cowherd size, number of participants in that segment? Do you see equal a greater consolidation there than at the seedstock level? Or what? What would be your outlook there? I think

Bill: 58:38

we still see, I mean, in Missouri, for example, and that may not be that much different than you all are, but it's some different. I mean, we see so many Fences being taken out and farming and I mean, we're going to see less and less producers and in my opinion, moving forward, the ones that are there are going to be bigger and they're going to figure out what their marketing system is going to be and how they're going to fit into the industry as well. I mean, and so that's, that's where I think again, the commercial side of it is really just, as they grow. I mean, it's the whole deal we see out there a lot is, a producer trying to figure out how they're going to approach genetics. I mean, are they going to try to raise their own replacement females and and still Um, utilizing some segment of their sires as more terminal? Are they going to try to use bulls that can do everything for them? And so I think we're still going to see some real evolution in that area that we probably haven't seen producers focus on very much because of their size in a lot of cases.

Matt: 59:59

Well, even though we as an industry are pretty traditionally motivated and pretty slow to adapt and change. I don't think there is any doubt in my mind that it's going to look different and maybe significantly different. And those are several areas that you know you hinted at that I think would probably Be on a lot of people's list, so it'll, it will be interesting. There will always be resistance to that change and uncomfort and discomfort and everything else. But, like it or not, it's a part of the business. Well, Bill, I think that probably gives us plenty to think about as we're bouncing down the roads and pastures this afternoon. But, uh, I appreciate you being here. Always have appreciated your, like I said, your ability to take some pretty complicated, complex issues and look long term and figure out what's about to come down the pike and then figure out solutions for it. So keep up the good work there method. And thanks for everything you've done for us and our family and me and everybody else through the years. We'll talk to you soon.

Bill: 1:01:06

Appreciate what you're doing, Matt.

Matt: 1:01:08

Thank you.

Microphone (Yeti Stereo Microphone)-1: 1:01:09

Thanks for tuning in to practically ranching, brought to you by Dalebanks Angus. We appreciate your support. If you like what we're doing, rate this show and share it with someone you think would enjoy it. We'll keep cranking out the content. God bless you. All. I look forward to visiting again soon.