Practically Ranching
Join Matt Perrier as he visits weekly with interesting, thoughtful, entertaining individuals within the beef community. Conversations will inspire curiosity and creativity while maintaining the independent spirit and practical nature for which ranchers are known.
Practically Ranching
#74 - Logan Thompson, The Emotional Aspect of Food
Logan Thompson is an Assistant Professor and Extension Specialist of Sustainable Livestock Feeding at Kansas State University.
He grew up on a registered Hereford ranch in central Texas which instilled a passion to improve the sustainability of beef production by developing practical solutions for producers. Logan started his bachelor's degree at Sam Houston State University in Huntsville, TX prior to completing his degree at Texas Tech University in 2015. Following this he earned a Masters in beef sustainability at Oklahoma State University in 2017 and a PhD in ruminant nutrition at Michigan State University in 2021. Prior to joining Kansas State University in August of 2022, he served as a post-doctoral fellow at Colorado State University.
Logan’s predominate research interest is in measuring greenhouse gas emissions in grazing systems and how grazing management impacts ecosystem function. Of particular interest in how the soil-plant-animal interrelationships are manipulated by management decisions. Additionally, his research examines how management decisions influence nutrient utilization within and across production systems. Logan's wife, Rachel, is also a science nerd and is a Senior Scientist in Ingredient Solutions R&D at MGP Ingredients in Atchison, KS.
Past Podcast references:
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1995747/episodes/14850913
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1995747/episodes/14176506
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1995747/episodes/12989654
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1995747/episodes/11378191
Links:
Frontiers | Is Climate Neutral possible for the U.S. beef and dairy sectors?
Thanks for joining us for episode 74 of Practically Ranching. I'm Matt Perrier and we are here thanks to Dalebanks Angus, your home for practical profitable genetics since 1904. The grass is greening up around here, so it is a great time to buy some cows. Stay tuned after this episode to hear about some that we're going to have for sale. Logan Thompson is an extension specialist in sustainable livestock feeding at Kansas State University. His main work surrounds how grazing management can impact ecosystem function. In addition to his research, he's also taught some undergraduate classes regarding current issues in animal ag, which my daughter Ava took a year or so ago and, and this is what piqued my interest to visit with Dr. Thompson. Now, I didn't. Plan on this episode being one of those, tie it all together discussions, but we seem to touch on a bunch of subject matter and experts from past Practically Ranching Podcasts. So I'm gonna post links to several of these old podcasts because a lot of you are new to the pod and since we mention them. You may want to go back and listen to these as well and, and hit rewind a bit. You know, Logan is a sharp, young researcher who has some, sometimes different perspectives than I have, or some different perspectives than you might have on beef cattle production and I think it's interesting because sometimes we, in the livestock industry seem to get just a bit defensive when we are asked to address and discuss environmental concerns and things like this. But I really appreciated Logan's comment in this podcast that sometimes these consumer requests or demands by groups, uh, they. They often make us even more efficient and more effective and better at our job of converting forage into high quality beef. So whatever your position on touchy issues like climate change and traceability and consumer perceptions or the environment, I think you're gonna enjoy hearing these perspectives from Dr. Logan Thompson.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:This whole, discussion about animal welfare and issues in agriculture, issues in the beef industry is something that I'm old enough and have lost enough hair that we didn't talk about it when I was in college. You know, uh, Dr. Janice Swanson was a, I dunno if I'd call her a predecessor of yours, but similar, similar role when I was at K State, but that was kind of a cutting edge thing to have somebody on faculty staff at Land Grant University just talking about how we talk to consumers and how we handle and manage our own business to make sure we're doing the right thing on animal welfare and management, and then communicating that. Today it has become, I mean, everybody talks about telling our story, um, what changed, why do you see that it's important and that we have so many jobs like yours? And I guess tell us a little bit about what you do there at K State as well, but why has that become such a priority in animal agriculture today?
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Yeah. So, my, my role at K State is, is changing a little bit, but, my, my title is Sustainable Cattle Feeding and,
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Okay.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:and I've taught classes centered on contemporary issues. And agriculture, um, and, and welfare was a big part of that. it's also kind of morphed into, or snowballed into issues around environment, I, I think welfare really kicked off the consumer interest and what beef cattle producers are doing
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Mm-hmm.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:of how they're managing, how they're treating animals. That, that's kind of where we started. Uh, I, I think it's a really good thing personally consumers are asking questions because, you know, when, when my, my dad, my dad was a cow hand on a registered corn herford ranch, in the seventies, eighties, nineties.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Sure.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:there really just wasn't a lot of people asking questions. Uh, and so it was kind of status quo. And then, you know, when, when folks started saying, Hey, how are you treating these animals? is the animal welfare like on a normal operation? I think it led to a lot of really good things. Right. Cattle handling facilities have really improved training of, of workers that's really improved. Um, so from that standpoint, I do think it's really good. And, and now it's just environment. and in, in terms of why they're doing it today, I, I think that there is, uh, a very emotional aspect to food, consumers, you know, well, I think everybody, you know, food can, can drive an emotional response. when they felt like perhaps there were issues in how their food was being raised, they, they started to, to voice their concerns to the industry.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:I am not sure I've ever heard that phrase, emotional aspect to food, but. It's an interesting one, and I think it says a lot about why it is that they are concerned and why it is they have questions and are curious. But I'll also flip it and say that it's also why we're seeing beef cattle worth what they're worth and what people are willing to pay at the grocery store because it's no longer just sustenance. It's an experience. It's, it can be an emotional experience when they put that strip steak on the grill and everybody says, wow. And, and we're selling more, than just protein and zinc and iron and, and everything else that they get in terms of sustenance. So I think it can be a good thing too if we do what we're talking about today and, and put our best foot forward and manage the cattle right and everything else
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Yeah, a absolutely. I, I know personally, uh, every time I fire up the Trager, I have very emotional response, uh, to whatever protein is going on there. and you know, those emotions go both directions, right?
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:right.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:and negative. But we do do a really good job as a beef cattle industry of producing a high quality, affordable, and, and nutritious product, So all, all those emotional aspects kind of tie up into this.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:So is there work that's been done? I'm just curious as to why that smoke that sizzle. What is it that triggers the inner caveman in us as humans and why Is there, has there been work in done there your
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Y you know, I'm sure there has, uh, mine is only, uh, anecdotal in terms of my, my
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:own?
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Um, but my, my wife's a meat scientist by training. I should, I should have probably asked her before, before I jumped on this morning.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yeah.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:that, what drives that response.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:It's, it's probably even further south on K state's campus in psychology and things like that, that they may be able to tell us why that triggers that, uh, that response. But it, it's real. It's real and there's value. And I think we have to recognize that for both reasons. One, from a opportunity of, of marketing higher quality protein and, and for more money. But two, because with that emotion is going to come questions. And, and you know, I remember my wife and I got the opportunity to go back east, gosh, it's been close to 20 years ago, to do a grilling demonstration at a family owned chain of grocery stores back there called Stew Leonard's. in addition to that, we kind of found out on our way there that we're also gonna be on Fox News Foxman friends the morning before. And so we're brushing up on all the facts, all of the data about how many grams of protein and, and all these nutrients that are in one serving of lean beef. And we got out there in the PR agency that was kind of in charge of putting this TV spot together, said, look, nobody wants to be educated at six in the morning. Just go out there and have fun. Just go out there and grill and talk and enjoy it because that's what people want to hear. And I think for a long time, and maybe to a certain extent, we in the beef industry still believe we've gotta educate the consumer. We've gotta tell them why they ought to be buying beef and enjoying beef. In my opinion. We've just gotta show them why it does trigger that emotional response and why we are as transparent as we can be with how and why we have these generational businesses that are trying to produce this beef. And I think sometimes we forget about that emotion is probably worth more than all the facts in the world that we could convey.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:absolutely. And that, that's something that we talk about at K State is, you know, how, how do you introduce people to, to agriculture, to
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Mm-hmm.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:production? you know more people today in cities than in, than in rural communities.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Sure.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Uh, there are usually multiple generations removed. I think most people in a city like my wife's from Chicago, most people are like, oh, my grandparents farmed, or My great-grandparents farmed. But there's several generations removed, and if you were to just, you know, or drop them into a, into a feed lot, loty a very different experience than what they probably picture in their head from, from grand, you know, their grandparents farm. part of, you know, uh, one way that we think about introducing people to ag is that, you know, uh, tasting, a tasting event or a grilling event, you know, something that's very low barrier for entry, but can drive a very pleasurable response, right? And, and can kind of introduce them to beef production in a.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yeah, and in addition to that actual consumption of the product, the conversations that go along with that are probably even more important. But yeah, you've gotta have that. That event or that steak or something to, to start the conversation. So you mentioned feedlots. Um, that's probably been a sticking point and sometimes some would consider a liability, because of their confined nature, because of the fact that there's not beautiful green grass and a pastoral type of setting for these cattle during that phase of, um, of the, the beef production chain, is that enough of a liability that we need to address that and consider that and how it looks to consumers? Or is there enough value from a economic standpoint and from a taste standpoint and putting that marbling in and it's, that's as efficient a way as we found to do it yet, is it something that we just have to figure out how to make, look as good as we can possibly make it look and make it actually be for that animal, going forth, or is the consumer pushback gonna be enough against CAFOs that we've gotta figure out a different way?
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:I don't see a. Near or or midterm future where feedlots aren't, aren't a part of our industry.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Right.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:your point, they're highly efficient. Animals are only in there for a short period of time, you know, the last few months of their other life. and it's a great way to generate a high quality, you know, high marbling content product. I, I think that's one of those, those issues that we're gonna have to stay, on top of all the time. there are, there are issues that we run into, with, with the lot production. We need to minimize those as best we can and continue to work to improve on the margins, of those welfare concerns continue to just talk to the consumer. Reiterate that this is only the, the last few months of their lifecycle. The rest of the time they are out on grass. Their, their moms are out on grass for the entirety of their lives. Right. It's really just a snapshot in time because when I read, the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal, when somebody sends me an email and saying, Hey, have you seen this, this new article? always, factory farms for beef, cattle and a feed lot, That's,
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Right.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:really what we do in the beef cow industry. So we just have to stay on top of that consumer education point from that standpoint. And then just constant progress.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:So as we see more of our beef cattle, come from beef on dairy type scenarios and even some confined beef cow feeding operations where the cows maybe aren't on pasture all of the year, uh, maybe they're out there for a month or two as they're calving and things like that. If that grows; right now, that's a very small percentage of our production, uh, from the cow side; but if that grows to be a significant part, is that a liability? And how do we best, again, frame that? if that becomes more economical to do than having cows out on grass, how does that look and is there some liability that we've gotta consider and risk there from a consumer perception standpoint?
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Yeah, I'll, I'll start with the, the beef on, on dairy aspect first, so that, that is in my professional lifetime, that is our biggest change that I've seen is just the growth in that sector. you know, my, my family's tied into that sector, you know, you, you and my brother. it's a, it's a massive aspect of the industry
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Mm-hmm.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:and with that has come a whole host of new challenges that we didn't, we didn't have before. you know, some of your listeners might be aware, but you know, liver abscesses on, on beef, on dairy crosses are, are fairly prevalent. Right. And it's not something we, fully have our hands around yet. so from that standpoint, I, I think yeah, it, it could be I think the liability first and foremost is probably gonna be, water issues around water and generating enough feed, before anything else. know, in southwest Kansas, Texas panhandle, Eastern Colorado, where a lot of those calves are raised, know, water is, is going to remain their number one issue. but certainly some welfare issues there. Uh, from the, the confined cow calf standpoint, to me that that's more of a, question around access to the industry is what, when I interact with somebody who's doing a confined or semi confined calf, A lot of times you, you see younger producers because they need less capital to get into the cattle industry by going a, a semi confined route because of land prices.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Right.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Right. I don't think of too many, any welfare concerns there. I think of more, kind of producer opportunity. I wish all cow-calf operations could, could look like the one in my head that's, you know, rolling hills and or in the Texas Hill country and, you know, beautiful horn herefords out on grass. But, they come in many shapes and sizes and I, I think we need to sell to our consumers that we're trying to engage a, a lot of different producers, who have different issues and different economic access.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:And as, as competition for land resources continues to increase both from within and outside of agriculture, I, I think that decision tree just continues to fork. I, I think it gets tougher and tougher to justify and I hate it. I'm like you, I, I, I absolutely hate the thought of having massive amounts of cows in a confined type of feeding operation for most of their lives. As you try to pencil it, young producer or old, really expansion things like that. Um, it is really hard to justify buying thousands of acres of who's ever flint, hills, sand hills, wherever the case may be, grass and pay for that with a set of cows, um, even on today's prices. So I think economics are going to drive that as much as anything, uh, age or or otherwise.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Yeah. I mean it's, you know, me and my wife are in our early thirties and, know, when we talk about how we can get further into the cattle industry, that's the, the one that makes the most sense for us,
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yeah.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:is to go confinement, especially, gosh, I was watching cattle prices the other day at special in Texas, and you had pairs going for$5,000, or dang close to it. It. It's really hard to make that price work on top of your land prices.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Right, right. Yeah. There's, there are lots of barriers to entry in the cow business and, those two would be today, those two would be the big ones. Uh, the land has been for a long time and now with replacement female prices that, uh, that has become part of it too. as we talk about sustainability and some of that work that you've been doing, and it sounds like are maybe gonna do even more, from a science standpoint, let's, let's take the perception and the consumer and what we all have in our mind as being the best place to run a set of cows from a looks standpoint. Which is better from, if we're talking methane, if we're talking just blanket carbon emissions, are cows out on pasture better for quote unquote the climate discussion, than a confined set of cows? Or, or do you have data like that? And I, I know we had Dr. Mitloehner on a while back, episode 46, I think it looks like, and we've had this discussion a lot, but I, I don't know that I've ever asked somebody what's truly better for the environment? A set of confined cows or out there grazing forage and using, letting the rumen microbes work.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Yeah, if you, you just look at the sustainability issue and are probably aware, but sustainability often boils down to enteric methane,
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yep.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:methane produced from rumen fermentation. Uh, generally confined cows will emit less methane or unit of of feed consumed per pound of feed consumed rather than a grazing cow.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Mm-hmm.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Um. I, I don't normally take that standpoint. take, uh, the standpoint of, uh, resource use and ecosystem health. Um, and, you know, if your listeners want a picture, you know, drive from Manhattan, Kansas to to Seattle, Washington, you're gonna see vast tracks of rangeland, um, some more extensive\ than others. And a lot of, you know, mountain grass grassland areas, that are all managed by grazing ruminants, largely cattle. Right. And where those areas are healthy, that's because the grazing has been done correctly. So, I, I don't like to boil the sustainability discussion down just to methane, there's a lot of other aspects to it. Um, and I think ruminants, you know, historically dominated our, our great plains ecosystems in the form of bison. We replace them with grazing cattle and they're methane generated. Uh, all the, that, that we've. I've seen published says it's about the same. Right. So think you take it from a ecosystem health and the cows are, are doing a pretty good job of that.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:So how would you define ecosystem health? If, if a consumer, if a producer asked you, what, what is that? Because there's a lot of nuance in these conversations. You ask what sustainability is to anyone, and you're gonna get lots of different answers. What, what's ecosystem health from Logan Thompson's standpoint?
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Yeah. I, I like to look, look down. you know, different stakeholders might, focus in on birds or wildlife habitat in various forms. like, I'd like to look down and see how much bare ground do we have. are there large, uh, areas where we don't have grasses? Are there a multitude of different forage species present? uh, that's what kind of triggers my mind for Flint Hills, Kansas, right. Is a really thriving, uh, variety of, of forage species and not a lot of bare ground. Bare, bare ground is, is a waste of solar energy.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Mm-hmm.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:And we want, we want our landscapes to capture as much solar energy as we can so that we can package it and, know, usually, beef, but also all the other, ways we make money off our landscapes.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:So my. Soil health friends would say that you have to look down even a little deeper than what you're looking at, which is the surface of the ground
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Mm-hmm.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:get at the microflora and fauna below the surface and, and that ecosystem health would then equal or be a direct function of soil health of what's going on below that surface and why we have bare spots and why we don't have a diverse set of forage species there in that area of grass.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:you know, soil testing is, is obviously a part of it. If, you that's something you're, you're really hyperfocused and on. I hope all ranchers are, uh, I think re AG Labs is a place that I recommend people use, but, I, I'm also very outcome driven,
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Mm-hmm.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:personally, and I think bare ground is, is a great way to look at the, the outcomes. Great way to measure the outcomes that you care about. but yeah, labile carbon and nitrogen or water extractable, carbon and nitrogen, I. Microbial communities, they're, they're all a part of it.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:There's nothing easier than being able to go out and look as you said down and see what you've got. You don't need a, you don't need a soil tester. You don't have to hire somebody to come in and grid sample. You, you don't need any tools to be able to just look at your feet and, and see what you see. And that's something that I think that all of us, especially in this region, and we're not alone in this, but the last four or five years because of lack of rainfall, lack of timely or normal rain events, I know our. Our ranch, and I'm embarrassed to say it, but we've got some thin stands of native grass that I am not sure I've ever seen thin, but because of what we've seen in the last few years now, hopefully we just caught some rain here over Easter weekend, which was a blessing, and hopefully we're setting ourselves up for a little more normal climate pattern. But I think we have to recognize that we can blame Mother Nature for a year or two maybe, but if, if that's what we've seen for a decade, maybe we have to admit that we've got to change the management and, and address some of those bare spots and some of those areas that look like they've been hammered a little harder than we've ever seen him.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:You know, you, you just touched on a, a really good point and, and that's one of grazing management and paying attention, you know, people in, in the, the ranching community, you know, you'll hear conversations around mob grazing or rotational grazing, uh, holistic grazing. I, I'm a big fan of if you have a plan and you pay attention, you can, you can see positive outcomes.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Right.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:I, I try to not like push people one direction or the other in terms of what their management should look like, they're paying attention, I, I think we can, you can make positive changes. It, it sounds like you pay attention to your landscapes and you can be nimble and kind of adjust your management as you go to, lead to the outcomes that you want.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yeah. We've we've tried to be, what I would say, moderate intensity rotation, and not just, you know, turning cows out and they never leave that pasture or turning'em out for 90 or 120 days, we are generally speaking, depending on whether we're down in the valleys on cool season stuff or. Or up in the hills on native. But, uh, those cows are, are being moved, between a week and a month throughout the grazing season. but it, again, you can't put a clock on Mother Nature. and you've got to watch and you've got to be nimble. And it is not an easy thing to do, in agriculture to, to do those rotational type programs. But, yeah, without a plan, it's sure not gonna work. If you just heard a podcast and decided, Hey, I'm gonna put 10 times as many cattle on this, and all of a sudden you realize that your fences aren't set up for it, your drainage isn't set up for it, your, whatever the case may be, um, you, you can run into roadblocks in a hurry. So from a consumer standpoint, how, what would you say as you've read some of the, the research as you've talked with consumers, you as yourself, uh, even talking with students. Rank may be the top five, and I'll say concerns or interests or whatever. I mean, I'm not trying to lead the witness here, but animal welfare, climate, all these different things. What is driving their concern or their curiosity about beef production today in order from high to low?
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:you know, there's, there's what consumers, you
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yeah.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:say, and
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:right. Yep.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:their dollar, their dollar says.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yep.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:and I'm guilty of that myself, uh, but I. I would say animal welfare, is usually still number one. Following in some order is gonna be price, environmental concerns, and, health, you know, human health issues, those get ranked differently, that's, that's normally major issues. that, there's usually a pretty big gap. but for whatever issue comes up, maybe something like a antibiotics, you know, or ex's, exogenous hormones, something like that. But those top four are pretty common.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:So let's break down those top four. So we've got welfare, price, environmental concerns and and effects on human health, starting with welfare. What specifically I. Do they wanna know what, what specifically do they expect from us as producers? A, how we treat our animals, but B, what we tell and how deep we go into explaining what it is we do with these cattle to get'em from point A to point B.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:I, I think they just want to know that the meat they're about to consume was raised in an ethical manner and that animal is treated right through its entire life. and you see that with, you know, if there's a, a little QR code where somebody can pull up a picture of the rancher that raised that animal, right? That, that seems to like validate that this is a ethical product to consume. How we communicate that is a little tricky. I know that there are, some humane labels or some welfare labels out there, but labels aren't that effective because of just fatigue from seeing so many of them.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Right.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:so I, I think that's more, you know, cattleman's organizations and, and land grant institutions getting out there and, and, uh, kind of telling the story. but yeah, they just wanna know that it's, it's raised properly.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:So raised properly, raised in an ethical manner. man, you talk about some room for interpretation. I mean, uh, as an example. We run Angus cows here. We were calving in the midst of that negative 20 wind chills and things like that we're not set up to calve cows inside. So the day before that storm rolled in, we went out and everybody that hadn't calved to that AI date that was probably gonna come in the next seven to 10 days. We loaded up outta the pasture hauled to a facility where we're normally breeding cows, but we set up little pens in there, and we got'em outta the wind, and we had places we could even get'em inside if we needed to. I took a picture of that and one of the calves that had been born had been nursed was golden. He had about an inch thick of snow on him. His mom had him stashed in a good spot out of the wind, and I posted that as, as a, Hey, we did what was right. We achieved success. This calf is very healthy, and I got a comment or two, that poor animal how, you know, they, they, they weren't accusatory, but their comments were clearly that isn't ethical because that cow, that calf has snow on it. Well, it has snow on it because it's warm and it's keeping its warmth inside and not melting that snow. I knew that it was in good shape, but in their interpretation, I was abusing that animal because he or she wasn't inside outta the cold just like the humans were. So this whole humane treatment of animals, sometimes I think. It gets taken a little too far.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:It, it does. And, and that kind of, there there are animal welfare scientists who study that phenomenon. Exactly. you see it in, say, like the California egg standards,
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Right.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:With the cage-free eggs. Is animal welfare improved in those aviaries, Potentially, no. Across the board. When it comes to, things like cannibalism or,, just general, well, chickens are unique creatures, so they, they like to cause, mayhem a little bit right there, there are negative animal health impacts in that system, right? But they touch some other aspects of animal welfare that consumers like chiefly. It's a more natural setting, right? And so I, I think your example is just that as, uh, as well, you know, it's a natural setting that that calf is probably very cold a little bit, but he was also perfectly fine and his performance isn't gonna be negatively impacted, So it, there's not a, a one size fits all solution and you you can't, create a perfect system for every stakeholder. that's part of that outreach that, telling our story that we've kind of talked about so much the, the animals are built to be outside. They're not built to be inside. They, they can handle that. We were calving, as well during that cold storm. it was, uh, quite fun when we walked out there the first day and it's like, oh, there's three of y'all on the ground. That was the choice. Uh,'cause y'all aren't two yet. but you just, you know, you treat'em right. You do everything you can to make that animal comfortable. and, and we didn't lose any calves in that, that event either.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Good.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:so there, there's kind of levels to it, right? And welfare is not something we can measure. You can't go up to a cow and say, are you happy? we look at, you know, different metabolites in the blood. We look at normally performance metrics to say, are, are we reaching stressful levels of, of, cortisol, is performance being impacted? But we, we can't actually go up and just ask like we can a person.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Right. Sometimes I'm not sure. We're very good at asking people if they're, if they're well either. But uh, that's a whole different podcast.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:At the very least, we're probably not good at giving honest feedback
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:There you go. There you go. That it's not, it's not the interrogator. It's, it's the answer. Yeah. I, I think that is the challenge that I have is, uh, in this whole, this whole discussion is where is the threshold of doing what is raising these cattle in an ethical manner? Because, uh, what an ethical manner is to someone that's never had to care for animals that are, as you said, supposed to live outdoors and all they know about animal, quote unquote production is their chihuahua or their cats, or whatever the case may be. It, it's, yeah, it, it is, there is a d very, very nuanced set of perspectives there to, to have to wade through. But I, I think that, again, in all of this discussion, I think that the fallback is when in doubt, be transparent. Show what it is we're doing and why. And usually that why part and the fact that we care probably more for this cow herd than what we do sometimes for our own family or definitely our own health, personal health, sometimes I think helps us as much as anything. and I guess that leads into another question about this welfare discussion. How do we best share that today with the technologies that are available? What's the best way that we tell that story?
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:well first I wanna just circle back to, to that last kind of
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Okay.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:You know, I think your willingness to have those conversations in the post and share and be honest, that it can lead to some, like re really, really positive changes too. there's a dairy I know, and I won't say who they were, but, they invited, Out to, their facility. they were strategic in who they invited out, and the person made a suggestion and they said, okay, we'll trial it. We'll, we'll make this change. And they, they saw benefits, in terms of, calf health, like having honest, truthful and transparent conversations, even though it's uncomfortable and can lead to also positive changes in, in our own operations. Um, and then your, your next question was, you know, how best to, to share it.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Right.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:You know, social media's a a bit, of a, a tricky landscape these days. and personally, I'm a fan of, of anything, video formatted, Just because I think we're able to tell a, a better story, and I'm working with some folks over in ag com, at K State here to, to help do some of that on, some stocker operations. you know, allowing producers to tell their story in kind of a, a video format I, I think are very useful. but I, I think more so than how you do it, I think it's who you target. You can pretty easily share information on whatever platform, Twitter, or it's not Twitter anymore.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:X.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Blue Sky, I think that's another one. YouTube, you, you can share things to other ranchers probably pretty easily. but designing it to, to capture the attention of consumers is a little bit different.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yeah.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:That's where I think kind of the video format can help consumers have, you know, they picture the red barn when they think of a ranch, and
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Right.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:to share that a little bit easier in the video. And I, I think it kind of grounds you a little bit. and then obviously like today we're on a podcast. Everybody listens to podcasts 24 7 It seems when I watch students, walk around, they're always listening to podcasts. I, I think that's an another great way, to share, share our story.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:So on that video. and I think the key part of that, as you said, so producers can tell what it is they're doing and explain that. And I think that's the thing you get with video outside of the still image is, is the voiceover, do we go that alone? Do we go that, you know, raw and fresh and in the moment ourselves? Or do they need to be these highly polished, edited carefully with a high quality video, get the right shot and the perfect background music, which resonates better today, and going forth to consumers.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:I, I'm not super adept at, at social media, but, uh, I dabble in it
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Mm-hmm.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:just to observe. And when I, producers I see who get the most engagement are on the raw side of things,
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Okay.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:right? You know, the, the videos at 4:00 AM on a dairy,
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Right.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Those, those capture, I, I think pe people's attention. plus I think that's multifaceted because people realize that you're up at 4:00 AM and you probably have been for a couple hours. I, I think the raw side serves a really good purpose, and those are things you can, you can share, you know, frequently. but the, I think the stuff has a role.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Okay.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:for sure. You know, those things, those are probably less frequent, uh, and probably more, uh, I guess., More appropriate for tackling tougher topics or,
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Okay.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:long form, conversations.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yeah, I, I would agree. And, and I think a mix of both is where I see the most benefit. but you know, for years and maybe even still today, in some circles, producers will say, I'm sick of hearing this,"tell my story." That's what the Beef Checkoff is for. That's what the university land grant institutions are for. That's what my Cattleman's Association is for. And I, I think, yes, they can help that. I, I think they can help us understand and learn and know what it is that we need to put on there. But I think a lot of it has to be, maybe not all of us, but at least some of us have to take that camera, that phone, and capture something that's gonna help tell a story. And sometimes it may not be pretty, but. it, I think the more raw and the more real that it is, and the more that it shows what we're dealing with and why we are making the choices and what, you know, what we have to consider as we're doing that. I, I think there's huge value. I, I just,, yeah, it has to be personal. I don't know that we always have to have it in selfie mode with us in it, but I do think that there is value in seeing a face, not just a voiceover that sounds really cool. And telling everything about the cattle production beef industry, uh, I think, I think there's value in the realness of, of us being on there and ourselves.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Yeah, and you know, the, the checkoff does, you know, do a, a pretty good job of, of tackling consumer
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Mm-hmm.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:things like that, but. You know, we're here in, in Kansas kind of central as Kansas. What I think what's gonna resonate more with the consumer in Kansas City? Is it gonna be something from the checkoff that might be a rancher from California? Or would it be something they're just scrolling random social media and they see a, a rancher in the Flint Hills or down in the Osage. Right. And it's a, an accent that makes sense because they've heard it that day.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it. Yeah.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:having producers share probably helps within their own communities.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yep.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:so, uh, it takes, it takes all kinds, but also to your point, probably everybody doesn't need to do it. my dad for example, he, he probably shouldn't get, get on social media. Um, but those who can, you know, I always try to encourage.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yeah. So your second point was price and consumer preferences. When we went welfare, price, environmental concerns, human health. I, I don't know that you or I are the expert on retail pricing. Um, may get Dr. Tonsor or somebody else back on. Let's, unless you have something to add on how it is that we affect that the best way to, to keep consumers buying beef.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:The, the only thing I would probably say is, we talk about a lot of issues, but then when you look at how people make their decisions, a product can have 10 different labels on it. They're gonna usually go with the one that's the lowest price point and or looks the best.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yep.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Um, that, that still really drives consumer decisions more so than anything else. Yeah,
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yeah. I, I would agree.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:to anybody. I.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yeah. It, it's not, but. You said earlier, we have to look at what the consumer says they want and then what it is they actually do. That's a classic example. I mean, you know, whole Foods to throw them out there as an example, but it's an easy one. They have their no hormones, all natural organic gap for, everything you could put on that piece of beef. And it is expensive enough that it may get consumers in the door because that's what they think they want and then they trade down to whatever the cheapest cut is and, but they still buy it at Whole Foods and it's next to this other stuff, so that's good enough for me. Would that be kind of what we're seeing sometime from a consumer price discussion?
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Yeah. I, I mean there, there are roles for niche products,
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Right.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:I'm a, I'm a big fan of grass fed beef, personally. I really enjoy it. It is a niche market, and even though consumers might say that they want everything grass fed, they when it comes to spending a little bit extra money on that pound of ground beef,
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yep. Yeah. So yeah, I think that's a good point and one that I'm glad you brought up on the price standpoint.'cause it doesn't matter if it's beef or Cheerios, you know, they can say one thing, but you gotta look at what's in their cart and what they're actually taking to the register. So environmental concerns was three. Um, I mean there's a whole host of things there. Obviously you said when we're dealing with cattle, we're talking about mainly enteric methane. What are, just list those out as a subset of environmental concerns. What are a typical consumers concerns as it pertains to beef industry on environment?
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Yeah. So, uh, climate change would be one, you know, the role of beef cattle produ production on, on the changing climate. for us, uh, our greenhouse gas that we emit is, is methane. Um, it, it does trap energy in the atmosphere, just like carbon dioxide. Well, not just like,
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Right.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:bit more effective at trapping
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yeah.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:the atmosphere. Um,
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:But it doesn't stick around as long, right?
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:it does not,
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yeah.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:to 12 years before it's, it's broken down. Um, so it, it's a, a flow gas is what we call
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Mm-hmm.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:and carbon dioxide. Uh, if your listeners don't know, I, I think of it as a gas, that once it's emitted, it's effectively there until it's not.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Hmm.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:something pulls it down, um, it's, it's going to remain in the atmosphere. And then nitrogen would be another, key one for us. So, nitrogen in the form of ammonia or, you know, wet nitrogen depositions and Rocky Mountain National Park. you know, that was an issue on the, the front range of Colorado for a while. also nitrous oxide, um, it's another greenhouse gas and then particulates. Um, so air quality issues like the smog you might see over a feedlot, is gonna be related to, to nitrogen.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:So the fourth of those was human health. And I think you kind of separated out from human health, um, added hormones and antibiotics and things like that. I, I would almost throw those in there because it's a perceived part of human health. But what are folks concerned with from a beef industry standpoint and, and consumption of beef in the human health? Arena.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:there, there are some, some studies out there and, uh, it, it's honestly pretty, uh, conflicting on the impact of, of beef on human health. Um, but there's studies that say it causes cardiovascular disease and, and increases prevalence of cancer. Um, and there's other studies that say no, uh, within, this range usually somewhere around less than a hundred, uh, grams per day. there's no negative impacts on, on human health. but I, I think whenever a, a product or a food gets a negative, connotation with human health, the ramifications are long lasting. Um. So just because there's studies that say there isn't, doesn't wash out the studies that say there are, and so consumers are, are concerned about that. Uh, chiefly the kind of those issues, right. Uh, heart disease and, and cancer risks. and then yeah, the, the hormones or antibiotics, I, I do tend to separate those just because I tie those to, you know, general management practices or specific, technologies. and they, they don't really impact human health. but there are concerns over, you know, metaphylaxis use of antibiotics, which we've since reduced significantly with the VFD. and then the, you know, increased hormones from implants. they, they see. I think the number is a 30% increase in estrogen and the implanted steer, and that kind of makes people nervous. They don't realize that that's a increase from 0.03 nanograms to 0.06 nanograms. Um, the final product, which is, is biologically irrelevant. they just see the 30% number and, uh, can cause some concern.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yeah, you'll have to, if you get a chance sometime. I had a lady by the name of Diana Rogers on the podcast back, uh, episode 40. I just had to look it up here, but. You know, you said that some of this science sticks around a lot longer, even if it has been disproven. I mean, she talks about that work that Ansel Keys did in the forties and fifties, and as it pertains to beef's impact on heart health and cardiovascular health. And, and, um, even though a lot of folks, including some journals of medicine have said this was not sound science. It's still there. It's still in some of these teaching of, you know, med schools and still in the, um, accepted practices of, of some human health practitioners. And, uh, yeah, it, it, it has been, I think though that we are seeing those tides change. In fact, we, if you look hard enough, and again, you don't have to listen to many podcasts and you'll find somebody that says not only can you eat beef as part of a heart healthy diet? You maybe should be in cutting back some of the carbs. And so it's, it's fascinating to me how quickly those trends, uh, when we talk about human health can change.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Yeah, and Diana is, is wonderful. I, I've got to interact with her a couple of times.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yeah.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:she, yeah, she's really, really wonderful. I, I think everybody should go re-listen to that episode. and that, you know, ties into another point is all these issues we talk about, the world is cyclic.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yeah.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:so, you know, these issues will come back around in 15 years. and we will be onto something else in the interim, most likely.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:The, that, that could be, uh, used in a lot of different references and a lot of different discussions. Yeah. That, that cyclicity of, of trends and of the world's, um, beliefs is Yeah, it's, it's pretty interesting. So we, we talked about that, those environmental concerns. Can the beef industry ever, in your opinion, can we ever become carbon neutral?
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:So with traditional accounting framework, uh, and by that I mean GWP 100
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Okay.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:be the way we would account for methane, uh, most likely No.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Okay.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Um, if we knew use newer accounting, one called GWP Star, that takes into that short-lived nature that you mentioned of methane in the atmosphere, yes, we, we probably could. Um, uh, we just published a paper on that last week. Uh, but, uh, it's really gonna be accounting driven. Um, personally I would like to get beyond this focus on carbon talk about all the other, uh, aspect of sustainability and sustainability. I know in today's 2025, climate can be a tricky word really. We're talking about production efficiency, you know, animal health,
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yep.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:health, the, the normal things
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Exactly.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:care about. Um, but I would like us to focus in on other issues. You know, I, I think of, for Kansas, I think water and manure.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Mm-hmm.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:we have big feedlots and dairies. We have a lot of manure to handle and, and get rid of, and package in a way that's effective. And we have water issues in the state. And I, I afraid that sometimes we spend too much time focused on carbon and not enough time focused on regionally specific issues. Uh, well, and the national conversations anyway.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:On those national and even global conversations about sustainability. I know, you know, a lot of us are familiar with this global round table for sustainable beef production, and I know that group tried to frame the sustainability discussion in several different things, including financial and social, uh, sustainability, you know, rural communities and the health of, and rural families and things like that. Does that, is that valid as we talk to consumers or is sustainability to them still. Environment and natural resources.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Oh one, it's a hundred percent valid. you can't be sustainable if you're not economically profitable.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Amen.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:There's no, there's no conversation. If I were to come to you and say, Hey, use this type of management, it's gonna increase, it's gonna reduce your carbon footprint, it's gonna cost you a hundred thousand dollars a year, but
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yep.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:you would laugh me off the place. Um, so it is valid. Uh, but consumers don't always take that into consideration.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yep.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:do focus more on the kind of carbon myopia aspect of, of sustainability. So just, you know, put blinders on and is carbon.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yep.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:so it, it probably needs to, I think, change as, as we move forward to have people realize if, if you want a environmentally friendly product, most likely it's going to cost more at the grocery store. and until they're willing to spend more on that, then there's not a market signal. Right. Going back to the production level to, to change in any sort of drastic way. Just our, our kind of traditional, um, marginal improvements year over year.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:So changing gears just a little bit, but I think there's some ties between that carbon discussion and as you mentioned earlier, cattle that are out on grass that are on forage, and those rumen microbes are breaking that cellulose down are going to emit more methane. Plus most of our consumers are accustomed in the US to grain finished beef, and that's what they prefer. But you had said that personally you like grass fed beef better, and I know there are others that would say the same thing. I'm curious, just from your standpoint, and, and you're not talking as a, an employee of Kansas State University in this discussion, why is it that you prefer grass fed over grain fed? And why do you think that that's a niche that needs to continue? If not grow?
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Yeah, so definitely taking my, my K state hat off for
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:There you go.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:I don't want any of my feedlot stakeholders to hold, hold my feet to the fire. I do have feedlot research going on right now for the record.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Good.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:You know, I grew up on a ranch. I've done grass finishing work, in my past. enjoy the complexity of that production style. grass finishing is a very complicated, energetic equation. How do you get those last 60 or 90 days on grass, done efficiently? How do you get enough energy packaged into'em when that animal is, is inefficient? it's, it's complicated, right? There's a lot of different forages you can think about or choose or trial. Uh, you can, you know, over feed in the winter, you know, try to maintain plan and nutrition. You can under feed and look at, compensatory growth. It, it's just complicated and I enjoy the process. so that, that's my personal bias. I understand feed lots are complicated as well. it's just what I find fascinating.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Well, I think anytime you are able to limit Mother Nature's immediate, role in the equation, IE harvested grains or forages that are delivered and you can get'em from a lot of different areas and yeah, it makes it maybe more expensive one year or you have to get it from a different region, but you generally know it's going to be there as opposed to, as you said, if you, if you know this animal's gonna be on your ranch grazing your grass and all of a sudden. You're accustomed to six inches of rainfall in August, September, and October, and you don't get six tenths for two or three years. Yeah, you're in trouble trying to finish those over a winter and things like that. So yeah, I think there it, it is a lot more complex. Do you see in the US just domestically, do you see grass finished, forage finished beef increasing, decreasing, or staying in its kind of niche form right now over the next decade, two decades?
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Uh, I think we've seen it increasing since, oh, maybe the late two thousands. You know, it's increased a little bit. Um, it's still very much a niche market and that won't change. but I, I think, you know, whether it's increasing because we have more people or increasing because of demand, uh, those are probably questions for, uh, Dr. Zer. I, I think it's most likely just increasing because of interest in the topic, not necessarily overall demand for the product. Um, and I think that'll continue. you know, There's some really good grass fed producers that have gotten out there and got on some really big platforms. one that jumps out at Will Harris at
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:has been really front and center on this, on this conversation. I think that'll, you know, kind of get people's interest in the short term, whether we retain them over the long term. You know, it's probably a no, but I would like to think we'll retain them to some level. but I, I think grain finishing is and will be the predominant, commodity in the next 10 or 15 years. It's not going anywhere.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:So whether it be grass fed versus grain fed, or gap four versus natural versus commodity beef, whatever the case may be. Anytime that we have a segmented market, we're going to run the risk of one of those segments trying to explain their value over another segment defaming that first one, and we see it all the time in branded beef areas that pit one breed or one type over another, or a management style, natural versus tradit or conventional. How do we,'cause I think there's, I, I think it's healthy to have those different segments, but how do beef producers do what they feel like they want and have a demand to produce without throwing the rest of the beef industry under the bus? Or is that a concern?
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:well, I, I mean, it's a con, it's kind of a pet peeve of mine.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Okay.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:you know, when, when it comes to interacting with the consumer, you know, it should be as a, as an industry. And we are communicating with our consumer not grass fed beef versus natural versus grain fed.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Right.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Unfortunately, I, it, it seemed like it, it's been an issue for a very long time, so I, I can't honestly say it's gonna go away.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Mm-hmm.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:I would like to thank that people can start to see that there are some when it comes to pitting one side of the industry against the other. I, I think when it comes to consumer education, consumer outreach, that's not the, the tack that we need to have. Um, but it, it is an issue in my opinion, uh, how we solve that. I'm, I'm not really sure, just because everybody has their own value set and their own set of morals. So they're gonna, they're gonna operate it based off of those. But if we could minimize it, man, that would be wonderful because honestly, beef production is such a challenge and none of us make money very often. Um, so I, I don't really see that there's a, a need to put one side down and raise another side up all the time. We're all serving different consumers more often than not. There's not a lot, a lot of overlap.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:I think a rising tide lifts all boats. And I think we have to recognize that. But you know, it, you mentioned Will Harris. I hear him on Joe Rogan, and I just wanna scream, I like what Will has done, but of course, Rogan is the world's best at pushing the right buttons to make sure he pits an alternative form of whatever the case may be, beef production, health, whatever, against the conventional traditional. Um, and so he leads the witness a bit on that podcast, but it, it almost, always seems to be that in an attempt to describe the value of whatever different production practice that beef producer is using. they cast a very, very negative light on whoever it is they're competing against. And, and quite often that's conventional beef production. And I think that's dangerous. I mean, because again, like I said, a rising, rising tide lifts all boats. And I think we have to recognize that's that.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Yeah, I, I waited quite a while to, to listen to that episode
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yeah,
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:uh, Will, was on there just'cause I was thinking, man, what, what is gonna get said? Um, I, I didn't think it was as bad as I, I, I didn't think it
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:you were prepared
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:but, uh, yeah. I think if, if you're making money producing beef, you should just be happy as you can.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yeah.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:a living and supporting your family, um, and not try to, to put other folks down. It's tough to do. No matter which aspect of the industry you're in.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yeah, no doubt. No doubt. So where do you see this consumer, um, where, where do they go from here? What are their preferences? Or do we, do you hear or see any new trends on the horizon? I mean, 40 years ago, um, we weren't even talking about climate change. And cows aren't, aren't emitting much more methane today than they were then. And yet it's a big thing. What's the next layer that we hear that folks are interested and curious in and wanting to know more about in beef production?
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Uh, one is gonna be as technologies come online that reduce greenhouse gases. is the consumer response to those in the us?
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yeah.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Uh, we've seen a little bit in the UK last, uh, fall, early winter on a, their kind of response to a feed product or feed additive called Bovaer, uh, being trialed there. And it will be very interesting to see how they respond here
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Mm-hmm.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:they've been telling the industry environment was a concern, so now that we have some, additives that are designed to reduce environmental impacts, are they gonna positively respond?
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yeah.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:you know, my, guess if I were to be cynical, I, I would, I use RBST as an example and,
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yep.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:say that it might be a negative response. but hopefully, we're able to share that these are safe, products and, they don't impact human health and they don't impact animal welfare and just reduce environmental impacts, and, they'll be willing to accept those products being used. I, I think in the next five years that will be, uh, the thing that I'm kind of keyed in on are they, how are they gonna respond to this?
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Well, and it's so ironic because. Just like those products you mentioned, I'll throw in ionophores and implants. I mean, if we truly as a consumer and as a population, if we truly are interested in sustainability and using our natural resources as efficiently and effectively as what we can and feeding a world and everything else, things like growth, promotants and ionophores do exactly that. they let us achieve more with less, and yet the consumer perception is that they're unnatural and that they're affecting human health. So on in those cases, we didn't even try, I don't think as an industry to get out ahead of it and explain to consumers, okay, this was the challenge, this was the problem, this was the technology that we worked with researchers and industry and everybody else, health officials to put in place to address that challenge. Um, so we're gonna start using it. So be ready and this is why it's safe. Do, how much of that can we do? Should we do, should we have done 40 years ago when some of these others came online? And, and how do we do that going forth?
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:I think the companies are, are starting to get out ahead of it a little bit.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Okay.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:mostly I, I, think because of the response in the UK being generally negative,
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Right.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:uh, that their marketing groups are probably gonna start getting ahead of it, I think we need to do more just because anytime there's a change in our industry, we do see that consumers aren't always prepared for it. even though, like feedlots would be a great example, they, I don't think they fully always understood, in the seventies and eighties how beef was being produced.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Mm-hmm.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:when they found out, they were a little shocked.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yeah.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:and we weren't because, you know, the industry had been doing it for so long.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Right.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:so we, we do probably need to get out ahead of it more. Uh, but that comes from not just the companies, those of us in research, you know, academics, that are supposed to be neutral. need to do a better job of getting out ahead of it as well. And I would even say internally within the industry,
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yeah.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:to, discussing these things more.'cause I, I know Bovaer, which is one of the products, it's being trialed here in the state of Kansas. and not all of our say like K state extensions agents know what it is. I think that's probably something that we need to just start sharing a across the industry is just, Hey, be on the lookout if you get a call about this. This is what it is.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yeah, and that's a, again, a challenge that our production model presents in that we've got feed yard producers who are very knowledgeable about, all of the technologies that they're using, but maybe not so much on the genetic changes and things that are happening at the seed stock and cow calf level. Conversely, we've got cow calf producers who, have absolutely no idea, or at least very little active knowledge and understanding about some of the technologies that are, have been already implemented and are going to continue to be implemented at the feed yard level. And, and that's, that's where I think, you know, as Dan Thompson and others have talked about, the, the one beef concept, I think there's value in that. And knowing enough about all these different parts of our production system'cause to a consumer, we're not a feed yard manager or a cow calf producer or a stocker operator. We're a cattleman. We are part of raising that animal, getting it converted into beef and knowing everything that happens to it. And they wanna know, they wanna know everything that happened to it. So they expect that we do the same. And I think that's one of the things, one of the reasons that we created this podcast was so we could have discussions like this and, and hopefully all be a little bit more educated about that. Yeah.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:And that actually reminds me of a, another change. I, I, I kind of anticipate, but I try not to talk about it. You
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Okay.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:I'm west of the Mississippi again, traceability. a as corporations become more financially invested in, in different programs, I think traceability is gonna be required to accomplish some of those. so we, we just saw some, you know, uh, feedback to the RFID changes that occurred.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Right.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:I, I think we'll continue to see more of that as, as consumers and corporations alike, uh, are in where animals move and are kind of required to trace them back.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:So right now the pushback on RFID on the National Identification System and it's, it's been. The same pushback that we've had for two or three decades that I've been actively involved in the beef industry. That is simply what I would call and what a lot of folks term a bookend approach where we put an ID in the calf's ear or before it enters commerce. And if there's ever a trace back, um, they can hopefully figure that out. That's strictly for disease. surveillance, what you're talking about is a much more robust traceability that that calf was born during this time period on this ranch, he was sold through this barn, went to this stocker operator, went to this feed yard, et cetera, et cetera, processed at this packer. How does that, former, or the one that you're talking about, I think the traceability model full on traceability model, how does that get implemented in your mind? Because I think a lot of folks have a bit of confusion between the two, between the disease tracking and surveillance that's only used if we have a foot and mouth or that type of outbreak, compared to the traceability that is used to help market that beef for a little more money.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Yeah, so we, we've seen some of these programs pop up. With, with fairly large outfits. Would be, uh, uh, don't think you can find it online now, but it was called Brazen Beef. It was a Tyson branded program. It was effectively a traceability program for, environmental claims. And that took a lot of, legwork from the, the cattle producer, uh, who finished that animal to, to get that program set up and get rancher trust.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Right.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:I, I think most likely the, the disease program is gonna be the, the easiest to implement. Um, easiest in, uh, it might get implemented, uh, a little without too much pushback. I, I think what these corporations are asking for is going to take a long time, but they are asking for it, large global lenders for, for ag or
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Right,
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:at. of blockchain technology to track animals across the supply chain. How in the heck they get that done, uh, is kind of beyond me outside of saying they're gonna have to pay for it. it's gonna have to be financially, a financial reward for the consumer to part or for the producer to participate in that.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:So when Rabo has done that in Europe, and I think that's the one you're probably talking about.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Yeah, I was, I, I was trying not to,
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Ah, you're fine. I, yeah, we, we can get away with it here. It, it's, it's obviously gonna look different there than it would here. do you see that as being a immediate, I shouldn't say immediate, but a very rapid change over to this new system? Or do you see a IE the stick approach or is it a carrot approach where there's a few of these traceability systems that if they're in this and you can tell me where all that calf came or traveled through his life before he hit the packing plant? you're gonna have market plus X dollars.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:A couple years ago, I probably would've said that, my opinion was gonna be that we were gonna have the stick approach.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Okay.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:but if your listeners don't know, what, what I think about when I say a stick approach to traceability or, or really any program
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Sure.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:is a pay to play type of marketplace where, you know, A-A-J-B-S says you have to do this, or we're not buying your final product. Um, now I think it'll be more of a carrot approach, for a couple of different reasons, kind of some of it policy related, but, I think it'll be a carrot approach and. ramp up of these programs. So kind of starting smaller, and ramping them up across the supply chain, just because I think that's gonna be the most successful way to implement them. They'll, they'll have to foster, producer, trust, and kind of show the, the viability of the program in order to get widespread adoption of it. so I, I think it'll be more of a carrot.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:You have a timeline, just if you were looking at your crystal ball.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:I do not. This, this world has changed so much. I've been in the sustainability space for, 10 years, and I would say the last three years it's changed more than it did in the first seven.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Hmm.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:E even the carbon markets where they are now, they're just so much different than 2021. in terms of truthfulness of it, accuracy of them,
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yeah.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:it, it's changing very, very rapidly. So, uh, timeline, I don't know. I know there will be a plenty of pushback. if this does come out. people will have opinions on it, but, I, I think it will at some point.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Well, the wonderful thing about if it is a carrot ed approach and if there are dollars out there and potential trust that can be built, like you said, and one guy or gal does it one year and gets paid for it and figures out, then his or her neighbor figures out. And quite often it's the very neighbor that was saying, I, by gosh, we'll never identify all my cattle. That'll be the first ones to go and make that money. And so, um,, yeah, it'll, it'll be interesting. It'll be interesting.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:You know, I, I bring up that point you just made quite often when people ask, what, what do you do in extension? Say, well, we, you know, we, we convince ourselves that we educate the rancher, but really they just learn from across the fence line. and they occasionally humor us by showing up to meetings. but yeah, that, that fence line, knowledge transfer is pretty important for the ranching industry.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:Yep. No doubt. I've, I've been on, I've been on both sides of that fence, literally and figuratively, that's a great place, I think, to finish up and, and, um, we appreciate the, the info and the conversation and all that you're doing there at K State and, we'll look forward to staying tuned and seeing, how these things shake out because like you said, it's, it's happening fast, it's changing fast. This is not our grandfather's or grandmother's beef industry. there are very valuable parts of it, but, uh, yeah, there'll, there'll be quite a few changes I'd say going forth as well.
logan_2_04-21-2025_085814:Yep. Well, thanks for having me.
matt_2_04-21-2025_085815:You bet. You bet. Have a great day and I appreciate it a bunch, Logan. Thanks for tuning in to Practically Ranching, brought to you by Dalebanks Angus. If you liked the show, share it with somebody else, give us a five star review or a comment so we can keep cranking these out. We're essentially out of our private treaty bull offering, but we still have a super group of April calving registered cows that are available now. They're a super nice set of cows, most of them less than four years old, we'll calve them out in the next couple of weeks and they'll be ready for delivery after May 1st, if you'd like information with pedigrees, registration numbers, EPDs, and prices email me at mattPerry@dalebanks.com. God bless you all. I look forward to visiting again soon.
