Practically Ranching
Join Matt Perrier as he visits weekly with interesting, thoughtful, entertaining individuals within the beef community. Conversations will inspire curiosity and creativity while maintaining the independent spirit and practical nature for which ranchers are known.
Practically Ranching
#75 - Marci Penner, Rural By Choice
Marci Penner has served as executive director of Kansas Sampler Foundation since the formation of the 501c3. She has a unique perspective of Kansas having been to every one of the 627 incorporated cities several times for guidebook research.
Having a reason to observe, have conversations, and note common issues and differences led to the PowerUp Movement (empowerment of those 21-39 who are rural by choice) and the access to resources and topics for the Big Rural Brainstorm and We Kan! Conference. With the opportunity to do guidebook programs and speak at conferences, Marci enjoys the continual journey around the state. She thrives on matching those seeking guidance with resources and to bringing together Good Thinkers who use collective brilliance to move rural communities forward.
A graduate and double-sport letter-winner at the University of Kansas, Marci received her Master’s degree in Counseling and Guidance from the University of Wisconsin. She spent five years as an elementary guidance counselor in the Philadelphia area. She’s happy to be home on the family farm near Inman where the offices of the Kansas Sampler Foundation are located. Marci is dedicated to helping Kansans see Kansas with new eyes and to keeping our communities alive and thriving.
Kansas Sampler Foundation | Pursuing Everyone's Love for Kansas
978 Arapaho Road
Inman, KS 67546
620.960.0552
marci@kansassampler.org
Thanks for joining us for episode 75 of Practically Ranching. I'm Matt Perrier, and we are here thanks to Dalebanks Angus, your home for Practical. Profitable. Genetics.(TM). Since 1904. Have you ever served as a volunteer leader in your community? Have you ever been frustrated by those leadership paradigms that seem to rule the day? Have you ever questioned your decision to live and work in the community that you've chosen to live and work? If you answered yes to any or quite possibly all--of the above, I think this conversation is going to be one that you--can really relate to. Marci Penner is the executive director of the Kansas Sampler Foundation. And through her work with Kansas Sampler, she has published a ton of guidebooks, she's authored several other books, the Eight Wonders of Kansas, and along the way she has kind of adopted a mission of sorts to inspire and to encourage positive leadership in rural Kansas. Now she's clearly a very, very proud Kansan, but I believe that her work and her perspectives are relevant for anybody in rural America. She has seen the challenges of rural development, of involvement and community vibrance, or sometimes lack thereof. She's heard from leaders like you, both young and old, about the trials and the tribulations of, of getting things done with strictly volunteer workforces. In this episode, we hit on several issues that I'll bet may resonate with you and or your community. As usual, we may not give you any solid concrete answers, but I think sometimes just knowing that you and your community aren't the only ones with these challenges can be pretty helpful. In addition, I'm going to include Marci's contact information and website address and all kinds of different info that, um, maybe you can find a tidbit of information through her past writings or newsletters or information that she provides that may give you even more insights and ideas. And if nothing else, just some reassurance that it truly is a great blessing to be rural by choice.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:before we get very far into this, I've seen a lot of backgrounds, as I have interviewed folks and seen people on Zooms and things, you have to have the most appropriate background. And it's a legit poster, right? Or wallpaper or something. It's not, yeah, you're gonna show it to me. And I don't re record video, so unfortunately the listeners can't see it. Oh, that's.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:an entire wall
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:That's awesome. So I'll just, I'll try to describe in Marcy's office, she has the entire state of Kansas mapped out and, uh, a wide enough angle that you can pretty well see it east to west, north to south. So it's, it's very fitting for what I would say, one of Kansas' biggest cheerleaders throughout the decades, uh, Marcy Penner to have the map of Kansas. Right, In her background.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:When people come in the front door, I want them to know what we're all about.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:That's awesome. Well, we have a lot of Kansas listeners. We have listeners from across the world, like I said, and especially United States, and I would say 90 some percent of them live somewhere in rural America. And so the things that you have done for rural Americans, rural development, specifically in our state, rural Kansans, I. It's pretty inspirational. And you and I have only met once, I don't even know if you would remember when you came, I think it was while Heather Fuesz, our mutual friend and a group of us were working on trying to, raise some money for the Greenwood Hotel renovation. So it's been 10 or 15, maybe pushing 15 or 20 years ago.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:Yeah,
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:but
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:I remembered your name
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:yes. Yep, that would be where it was from. But you've done just some amazing work in, a lot of different areas. And I guess the time that I really said I've got to have Marci on the pod was when I heard you on another podcast, I think with Kansas Health Institute and talking about your work and talking specifically about your phrase, rural by choice. Tell me a little about how that came about. Oh, yeah. You've got it on your T-shirt. Yeah. Perfect, perfect. tell me how that phrase came about. Is it original and what inspired that? Because that, covers the gamut in my opinion.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:It, it really does. I'll, I'll first say that, um, it's now associated with our, term power ups.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Okay.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:the power up movement. It's 21 to 30 nines who are rural by choice. And there's so much power in those words because if you leave that part off, we're talking just about an age group. But rural by choice is an identifier about your being, your attitude, how you see the world. I started this with dad in 1990 and Deanne Wright, out of Council Grove working for Kansas State, was interviewing dad and I on the K State radio station and her and her husband, they opened a business, really just a downtown storefront called Rural By Choice. And so we had been talking and, and it just fit what we did. And when they closed that down, they sort gifted the
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Awesome.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:mean, it's not copyright, it's not it's others. I've seen it elsewhere. But it felt good to be gifted the term in an official way, including a sign. but. It really identifies who and what we are, what we do, values all those things.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:And it probably means different things to different people. But the thing that struck me, and I think a lot of people listening to this right now, um, sometimes we are in a place, we are in a location, a physical place because we have to be. And sometimes that may be rural America, sometimes that may be inner city America or even suburban America, and we don't necessarily want to be there. Rural by choice, even though there are gonna be some times that you go, was this the right move? Should I come back to the family ranch? Should I have come back and started a pharmacy in small town America instead of going to work for Walgreens, et cetera, et cetera. The overall goal is that I chose to do this. There are reasons that I thought this was a good idea then, and I'm gonna be happy with where I am now. And I think sometimes in rural Kansas, rural America, that um, is tough to keep that motivation. Do you see the same thing,
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:Yeah. And to keep going on that a little bit, it's, it's not like you're settling
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:right?
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:there. You want to be there. There's something about living in a rural community that, that touches you, that is you, that, and you know, those are the kind of people we need to sustain our communities is people who are there by choice, not by default. Not because they couldn't get a job somewhere. They couldn't make it in school. They're parents, begged them to come back. and, and we find that you can tell the difference
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Yeah,
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:in people who are rural by choice and people who just kind of feel like they're stuck And those are the people that we think will move rural communities forward.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:so we've all seen that difference. Maybe we've been on both sides of that line I think immediately we can conjure up and volunteer groups and then, you know, sitting next to'em in ball games and things like that, we can see the differences in the mindset and the attitude. Have you seen ways that you can help folks who do grasp and have been to some of your conferences and have decided that this is, this was my choice and I'm glad that I did it. How do you help move folks that maybe don't feel like that up to having that positive attitude?
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:I think some people don't think it's okay.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Mm-hmm.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:And so like if they come to our conference or, or some, And find out that others are feeling the same way. They're proud of it, they're doing things. I think it elevates that attitude in them we like to say rural is cool, and that doesn't mean everything about rural is cool, but when you start looking for those things that uh, special in a way that just you that, um, feeling in you that, wow, this is the best place to live. I am so glad I'm, I'm here and, and I think one of the jobs we have is to share those examples and to speak it and to amplify it so that others hear it and mm-hmm. When they do, maybe, and hopefully it'll bring something out in them. I, I also think we need to. Uh, one thing we put in our Kansas Power Up and Go report was to create the choir, means we need to the voices that can say rural is okay. It's okay to choose it and share that with our, um, graduating seniors in high school. And we need to do a better job of not just living it, but saying it and, and showing it, wearing it on our sleeve, wearing it on
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:On your shirt. Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me just last Sunday, we were up in Manhattan for our oldest daughter Ava's college graduation, and went to Mass the next morning with her and, and, um, the priest there, father Gail, part of his homily was addressing these graduates as they moved on from K State. And he said, you're going to be someplace different in a month or a year than you are right now. And you may miss us back here in Manhattan. You may miss your folks at home or your friends or whatever else, but you have to find a way to be. to be present where you are then and to be glad that you're there. And it's okay to sometimes miss and maybe even come back. But, um, wherever you are, that's where you need to be. And, and I think sometimes that we, yeah, wherever it might be, we have a hard time finding that place and, and being okay with it and not looking at the greener grass on the other side of the fence.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:Well, that sounds like a perfect message for graduates to have heard. I, I sometimes think, um, graduates do need to leave,
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Mm-hmm.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:to a bigger city, go where you think is the best place for you. And find out if you are rural by choice. And sometime it doesn't happen until they have kids or you know, something that changes their perspective a little bit. But, um, I was in big cities for a while and I know that shaped me valuing rural more when I did come back.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Yeah, the folks who have listened to this podcast much at all know my story and my wife Amy's story, but that's what we did. It doesn't necessarily mean that everybody has to do that, but that was almost a rule that our family had and still has that, um, in addition to whatever technical school, trade school, university, wherever you go to further your education after high school, in addition to that, you need to live somewhere else. Get a paycheck from someone else who isn't family, and not just prove to the world that you can do it, but more importantly, prove to yourself and make sure that you've tried that first. Because once right or wrong, we, I, it doesn't matter if it's a farm or ranch, you, family business, when you move back to your hometown or even maybe rural America in general, I, I don't know about that part, but when you move from college or from a big city back to rural America, a lot of times it's pretty difficult to pick up and move away again. And so you better, better have experienced those and not always be wishing that you had
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:Yeah, and, and just think about all the tools people bring back who have left and
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:right.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:They bring tools, they bring perspectives, otherwise our communities become too insular and, and we need. Either newcomers coming in or we need people moving back who bring something with them. If you don't mind, I'd, I'd like to say something about what you just said. Sometime people will move back still in their youngish ages and they've, they feel like their high school mates who are still there, look at'em as though they are losers. You had to come back. What was,
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Oh.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:you fail? What happened? Um, you couldn't make it.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Hmm.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:And so when I did one of our, my journeys to every city in the state to research for a guidebook in the early two thousands, that's when it really hit me about these power ups. I found them lonely. I found them wanting to have a voice. I found them. just wanting to break out of their shell, but their voice wasn't valued. They, they felt isolated. they thought maybe I did make the wrong decision. our job became to connect them with other rural by choice young people around the state. And it didn't matter how far around the state, they just needed to know that there were others like them wanted to come back. And, as a core, as a collective, they felt strong enough to start letting their voice be heard and making a difference in the way that they had imagined when they came back.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Yeah. And that's, I can, I can see it. I have seen it, maybe felt it. Um, and it, it's kind of a double-edged sword because here you've gone away to school, maybe a job for a little while and then come back. And I think a, you know, you've missed out on some growth and some memories and some things that happened in that four to eight or 15 years that you were gone. And now your classmates are much different. You might be much different. And if they were close friends, then, um, there's something different than there was. And both of you, both sides of that coin are going to go okay. I wonder what happened. I wonder why this person is like this. And a lot of times it's just life. And, and there's a window there. I was gone for 12 years from, from Eureka, Kansas, um, between college and, and work. And I mean, there are things that happened in the mid nineties to mid two thousands that were significant in Eureka to all of my buddies and all of the folks who went straight to work here and, and had families and things like that. I didn't, I don't even know they happened. And so it does, it, it makes us different. We have to recognize that. So we'll come back to some of these kind of philosophical viewpoints and things, but you mentioned something a little bit ago that I wanna flesh out about your trip to all of the towns in Kansas. How many incorporated cities in Kansas? 600 and some.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:Uh, you know, it, it does change a little
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:I guess that's true.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:two thousands it was 627
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Wow.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:it's 625. and, even though we look for exploring things for our type of guidebook. We
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:I.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:put every city in city, meaning down to, there's a hundred incorporated cities with less than a hundred population. But I had to go there to see what they had because they don't often know what they have that might be of interest. in Mclouth, they have this weird boulder in the middle of a city street. It's, it's, it's maybe two, two foot high and four foot long. It's a glacial hills boulder, and it's part of a bigger boulder that's underneath. And they, they couldn't move it, but the street needed to go there. And so they've chipped away and they ca can't get rid of that boulder. But, um. we it in the guidebook as the rock in the middle of the road. And, and I've even taken a bus of explorers there to see it. And that's an explor thing. And, and most of our towns have that, but they don't value those kind of things I went out,, but it, the journey also turned up, um, our work on the other side of things, which is to support and network rural communities and share best practices that are functional for the smallest of towns. Um, so it's, I I think the magic of our work is because we go to every town and see people in place, see the rock in the middle of the road, in place. We don't just read about it in a brochure. We see it, we feel it, we see the context of it. And, and that has fueled every single thing we've done.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:So tell me a little more about this journey. Uh, the first part of it was with your dad in 1990s. Is that what you said? And then, you know, why then, and then how did that go forth? I.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:Yeah. I moved back from the Philadelphia area. I had been an elementary guidance counselor, but uh, at some point I had a accident in a weight room and it, uh, I had to be on medical disability and had to move home. And the only job I could hold was with my dad. And on my good days, we would go driving around this state to, work on our first guidebook, which, complimented some work he had done previously with other things. And that changed my life, that driving around with my dad and starting to see these rural communities. And after two years of that, we formed the nonprofit, the Kansas Sampler Foundation, to do the two things that we saw, uh, one was to educate Kansans about Kansas. Newsflash, we didn't know our own state very well. And the second thing was that some of these small towns were finding really cool, easy, grassroots ways to sustain themselves. But back in the nineties, there wasn't email Facebook, there wasn't a way to share these things. And so we wanted to all of these things and, and also we didn't feel like, I don't wanna disparage the state, but in those days, they weren't really thinking about the 75% of the cities in Kansas that were volunteer led or under the population of 1500. with good reason. There wasn't a connection, there wasn't a way to communicate, um, these small towns. They maybe didn't have a chamber office. They didn't have, wasn't a way to have a constant contact person each and every year. And so we started really, um, doing all the things we did for the purpose of supporting those volunteer led communities. And I think we helped, not only the state, but other nonprofits and other organizations more easily connect with these communities in a way that they could then support or help them or know them or go to them. And so that's how it started. Just dad and I driving around the state, forming a nonprofit, writing guidebooks, and following our noses.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:And what you saw and what that first arrival in Mclouth, Kansas or wherever the case may be, I think is some of the benefit of whether it be leaving and coming back to your own rural community or showing up in someone's community, a new person showing up to a rural community and asking questions. How come that storefront is still there and yet so dilapidated. That's one of the coolest pieces of architecture I've ever seen, and I've traveled this whole world and those of us that have lived there and driven down that main street for 47 years, go, what's so big about that building? There's nothing, nothing has been run down since the sixties. Why would anybody care? Well, sometimes it takes Marcy Penner showing up, or it takes Joe Blow from Philadelphia, or whatever the case may be, to see things through a different lens and a different perspective. Now, the tough part is those leaders of our rural communities, me included, have a really tough time when someone who doesn't have a familiar name or a familiar accent, or a familiar look or whatever the case may be, it's hard for us to go, yeah, that's a great idea. Let's figure out how we can build some value back into that building, or whatever the case may be. How, how do you do that? How do you take the good with the bad?
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:Well, that's why I personally don't think the formula systems work
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Okay.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:I, I agree with you. I don't think you can just go in and say, Hey, this is, this is a great strategy. Here are the steps to do it. If you do this, you'll help your community. I think you have to find a way to help those local community doers see those possibilities. And and you can't just go in and say that.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Right.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:that doesn't help either. I, I think that the conferences we've done from the big rural brainstorm to the weekend conferences, which are built on peer to peer sharing, um, the Kansas Sampler Festival that we did, which, which, okay. Getting too excited, Matt. Let me
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:no. That's why you're on here.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:well, those conferences, um, let's say you or Heather or somebody went to them and you saw that it, uh, a certain, plan work for someone else and you heard about how they did it now you choose to go home and do that,
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Mm-hmm.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:and there will be so much more buy-in than if you hire a consultant
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Yeah.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:here's how to do it. seen towns like yours before. I just. Over these 30 years, I've seen those consultants come and go and I just don't see the sticking power them. But if you can change the local enthusiasts
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Mm-hmm.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:and help them know the resources and maybe guide them to the tools or the people that can help or help fund, um, I think then you've got a real chance. And I think that's happened with myreka. I think, that's happened. I've seen it happen all over the state, but only because someone in that town was inspired, likely by going to another town and doing something. The Kansas Sampler Festival was an event to bring people together to say what they had for you to see and do. and first we had to teach people that explorer things were worth promoting and everybody came together in one at first. We had it on our farm for eight years. Um, but it wasn't just the public coming to get the information that was important. It was the people behind the booth going to each other's booths
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Hmm.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:to see, oh, you think that was of interest to the public? Or, oh, look how you're promoting this. I could do that because none of these people, 90% of the folks that were promoting hadn't promoted anywhere else. It was very grassroots. so they were showing each other how to tell their story in a very low budget way that felt doable to others. And I think the only way to make progress. In a community is for those people to be inspired because as you know, Matt, with the Greenwood Hotel Project, it, it takes patience, dedication, perseverance. This is not for wimps to sustain volunteer led communities, especially.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Yeah, it, it's not, and that that persistence part of it, um, is critical. And, and it's, again, it's kind of a, uh, it's kind of a double-edged sword because things seem to take so long in rural America to take root, build enough energy and support behind them, and then enough funding to actually make them happen quite often, um, and get that change of, of outlook and perspective and culture to get them rolling that sometimes, you know, this kind of common three to six year term that you're usually on a volunteer board of directors in a lot of different types of organizations. You're on there for 20 years before you finally get something across the finish line, and then maybe another 10 or 15 to just keep the thing going. consequently a lot of our volunteer boards, at least in our community, and I don't think we would be unique in this historically, have been probably half or more retirement age and older. Um, let's, let's talk about that a little bit and, and just to make sure that we cover ourselves. We have all ages listening to this podcast, probably a little heavier on the 30 somethings and down. But, um, but no, we, we have all ages that wanna learn, and that's a challenging environment. I don't care if it's a local,, preservation society or social club or a state organization. Whatever the case may be. You've got a lot of gray-haired folks telling the energetic 20 year olds, wait your turn. How do you, how do you balance those two things? Because they're both very, very valuable.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:I think we're still missing a piece
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Okay.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:and, we call that communities of the future, we haven't, you know, it's been something growing in, in my mind, um, in our minds as we continue to travel the state. Um, and it has to do with getting every age group involved. I call it the eight to 98 plan, which it's just a concept in my head, but. If we can get everybody helping each other, if you can have a cohesive community likes itself, you are much more likely to not just have those 12 on the board doing all the work. I mean, the goal is to have almost everybody in the community feeling like they can be involved, like they can participate, like their voice needs to be heard. We, need to stop having the 70, 80 year olds telling the 20, 30 year olds, this is how you do it. What we need to do is have those older folks with all their wisdom, say to the youngers, tell me how you see this. What would you do? What's your idea? How can I support you? And, and it'd be really great if the younger ones then said. This is what I'm thinking, but you probably know how to handle this part that I don't see. It's that mutual respect. it's finding a way really have feel like they're a team.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Mm-hmm.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:You know, when the local sports team goes to state, everybody is in the bleachers. How can we replicate that feeling so that it's about our town not just for one year or two years, but it's for decades it, it, you know, it's just so exciting that people, kids don't wanna leave. They, they say, well, I was so involved when I was young. They listened to me. I got to give away money for this project and that, you know. It, it, it's creating a love for your town. It's creating a, I want to be here, but I wanna make a difference. It's, it's about listening to all viewpoints. It's the leadership paradigm. Matt, the leadership paradigm is a little messed up,
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:You don't say.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:and I truly believe it's the more, the bigger percentage of people in a town that you can get involved and feeling like they're contributing to the good of the town. Um, the better chance you have of having a thriving town that everybody wants to live in, whether it's 90 people or 900 people, I mean, don't you wanna live in a town where you feel like you're and loved and people are interested in you?
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:And have a purpose and have, you know, yeah. That
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:you're, even if you're 80 and have a purpose.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:right.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:And we can do that because even at 80, you're gonna have talents and gifts that aren't gone
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Oh, without a doubt.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:And then you're more likely to give money because you're being made to feel like still somebody. You're still somebody in a that feels like they're somebody in a town where everybody feels that way. Now, that's a community.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:That is. So without naming any communities, can you describe what a healthy rural community that fits what you just described, uh, what they have, how did they get there? What does their, let's say, elected or appointed leadership and, and how, how does it all work? Because I think any of us could talk about the other extreme and what doesn't work. Um, gimme some examples of how you see and, and is maybe there isn't just a cookie cutter. But if there is, I'd love to hear it.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:well, I wouldn't say it's cookie cutter because we're all so differently, whether it's the geography or the resources or whatever it is, but there's, there's two kinds of cultures. The, the one I'm thinking of, and you said not to say names and, and there's
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:You can.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:okay, Caldwell, I love Caldwell.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Okay.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:have this, and it might just be a, a look from an outsider, maybe the insiders. No, there's still gonna be grumpy people in Caldwell, but, from what, what I've seen over 30 years, they still have this same culture of volunteerism. Everybody volunteers easily. You don't have to twist their arm. they have a few key people who just keep things enthusiastic and fun. There's a three letter word that is essential to a cohesive community. this community of 1200, just built this fabulous new hospital. So people want to invest in Caldwell. You can walk down this Chisholm trail, this historic Chisholm Trail town and see these, brass plaques, maybe two in every block or one in every block. So if, if the museum is closed, you just walk down and you read the story, but there's so much pride evident. if there's a, kind of a eatery opening, they check with the eatery across the street to see how they can not be open. At the same time, they care about the success of each other. And I could go on and on. Oh, they're also very accepting of newcomers and you don't have to look like everyone else in town to be accepted. I think that welcoming, a sense of belonging, getting everybody involved, having fun, it in a way that people want to invest. invest can mean not just money. Great school system with a, um, soup who's part of the community and. I'm not gonna say this is, this hasn't been true every year, but currently Caldwell has an all women's city council, a woman, city administrator, and a woman. Is it the sheriff or, the top law enforcement person And then the city clerk is the guy, it's, it's not just being a woman. It's, it's about how, how they all get along and they're not trying to get the credit from one another. They don't really have this ego that's trying to this power thing and they bring other people into the conversation and the local, telephone Telco puts money in to create this venue that the community uses in a, the mural in town. They gave a chance for everybody to be involved in the mural. Not just painting, but painting something about you. Okay? So that's, that's one culture I see for successful. The other is when the right person people or family comes into town and changes the energy the town or someone leaves. So something has, in a stagnant town, something has to happen for the town to get juiced up, and it could be that a few key people go to a conference somewhere and they come back all enthused. But you can't be the only one enthused. But if the right people come into town or leave town, I think there's a chance for a new energy. And it's, and it's really fun to see those well. Now we've got all the grumpy people, people that, um, say this is not gonna work. And it might be one loud voice, there's, you know, I've, I've heard great strategies of handle those people. And it's just to go to them and say, okay, how would, how would you do it? I wanna hear your thoughts and put'em to the test. would you do it? Um, we, even at our conferences, we have something called the Reframe Rule, and we have a yellow card. And if anyone starts being negative or sapping the energy in the room or saying, oh, we've never done it that way. Someone can flash the yellow card and it's, they, we help them reframe what they said so that it doesn't pull everybody down. Maybe there's a good point in what they're trying to say, but they're doing it in a way that's killing the energy. So we have to help these people realize they're killing their town, man, help them figure out how to use language in a way. I, I know they would rather be part of exciting things. They just haven't been taught that they don't know that yet about themselves,
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:I mean, who wouldn't want,
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:part of positive.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:yeah, a hundred percent. So as far as leadership goes and, and we can talk either the successful communities that you've seen really work well or we can say the ones that, that have a problem. One thing that's interesting to me, and you touched on this a little bit ago when you were saying, you know, your city council or your board shouldn't. Have to be the only ones that are doing everything, and yet, quite often in rural America, that's exactly what it is. I've gotten the opportunity to be on quite a few different volunteer boards, both at the local level where I started, and then kind of at some state and national levels as well. I'm gonna throw Eureka under the bus because that's what I'm most familiar with. Our Eureka boards, nearly every single board that I can think of, whether it be volunteer or elected or whatever the case may be, those board members will have their monthly or quarterly or whatever meetings they will vote on all of the, the business. Hopefully set some kind of long-term strategy in addition to that, and then also be tasked with all of the grunt work. You get to the national level boards and quite often you either have staff or key people who do a lot of the grunt work or, or you're hiring an accountant or whatever the case may be, and those people that are on the board are there to do two main things, set long-term strategy and hire or fire the director, the CEO or whatever the case may be. Is it a cultural thing? Is it just a lack of population? And, and why do we in Rural America task the quote unquote leaders and hopefully thought leaders with not only taking a step back because I think you can make better decisions when you're not in the trenches having to do every single amount of work that that community organization's doing. How do we, can we do that? Should we do that? Is that possible? Have you seen boards at a local level that then also sometimes give away the power to the people so that they can go and help carry out the mission? Or is that just non-existent when we're talking about communities of 2,500 people in less?
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:Well, you know, especially in these volunteer led communities, I think there's just capacity as a real issue.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Sure.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:It's a real issue. What you're saying would be ideal. Um, I, you know, I think we should blow up a lot of ways. We've done things in the past, even boards,
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Mm-hmm.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:Meetings need to be different. And, and I'm talking volunteer led communities because
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Yep.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:are the ones where you can make changes. Um, you, you don't have to follow all the I mean, really there's more, leeway to do things differently. I think people sign up because in small towns, because they, they do wanna be involved. but it is special when you find these communities where the board, makes the plan, puts out the word like in Axl, population 400 in Marshall County. Uh, they needed a grocery store. So everyone who knew how to build things came in and built it. It's community owned, it's community, supported by people who were doing the hammering and nailing well, they're gonna come in and buy, the kids saw this, so then they wanna get involved. You know, it's, it's that culture thing. Matt, it's, I think in small towns, we just think boards, you know, you get the new person who comes into town, you slap'em on a board.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Yep.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:regarding boards, I, I really think we sometime don't think bold enough. We don't realize that if, if this meeting or this board isn't exciting or if it's not doing much or if we just rehash the same things every time, or if the same people are on it for decades, it's okay to blow it up and do it differently. Um, but it, it seems like we need someone to offer a substitute plan
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Yeah.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:for some of those things, and that's part of our communities of the future in the eight to 98 plan. So it, it's one of the, uh, pluses of being able to go to every town in the state because you see how everybody does it a little differently, and it's a chance to grab this or take that or eliminate that, see how someone else has done it, what might work. And I think we just get stuck in doing things the way we've always done'em. And that's why we need to say to the 20 somethings, well, how would you do it?
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Yep.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:Let's do it different.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Well, and as we see population decline in rural America and, and I hate that, but it is a fact of life and I don't know whether that we can stem that tide or even turn it the other way. But by and large, there are few folks, especially few folks who are willing and able to serve on some of these boards than there were 50 years ago. And yet most of us are still, and I'll just pick on agriculture. You've probably got a county farm bureau or farmer's union board. You've probably got a county Cattlemen's association board, maybe a county Cattle Women's Association board. You've got a soil conservation or uh, county, uh, conservation board. You've got a rural water board. Quite often you've probably got a rural watershed drainage board. A lot of these meet monthly and a lot of them have probably 30 to 70% overlap of the same board members just on volunteer agricultural boards in 105 counties in the state of Kansas. And I don't think it's anywhere any different, anywhere else. I remember after the first year, just like you said, I moved home in 2004 and I was fresh meat. I mean everybody, you know, oh good, you can. I've been on this board for 20 years. You get to be my replacement. And after being asked by five or six different boards in a matter of two or three years, I went, why don't we have one ag board and take care of all the business? And have one meeting a month instead of six times 12. Oh, you can't do that because you know, you got all this business and dah, dah, dah, dah. And I'm like, well, I, some people might be willing to serve on all these boards, but I am not one of them. I, I will do a few, I will do a little, I'll try to give back and, but yeah, I think when you talk about blowing up boards, um, that is a bitter pill sometimes for folks to swallow. But I don't know any other option in order to go forth because the volunteerism, the willingness to spend time away from family or business or personal time or whatever else, and the number of people is going to dictate that we have to.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:We have to do things differently. We have to be bold. We have to. Our conference in April was, uh, taking I transforming ideas from blah to bold.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Hmm.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:And really hard to come up with the bold, but, uh, rural community listeners out there, we gotta do it. We can't just do things in a regular way that we've always done'em. So Matt, you're telling me they didn't blow up all the boards and make one?
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Uh, I don't know of one of those that I mentioned that is no long, that has ceased to exist. Um, and I mean, for instance, one of them, I'll again pick out the one that I probably have been the most active with the Greenwood County Cattleman's Association. It predates the Kansas Livestock Association, believe it or not. Um, and, and so there is some history and tradition and things there that I think are worth holding onto, but there is also the glaringly obvious fact of the matter that I. You can only cycle through so many times on that volunteer board before you go, Hey, you know, I know what we're gonna do. I know the motions that we're gonna make at the annual spring meeting. I know the schedule for the fall Cattleman's day parade. I know that we're gonna help the youth out at the four h sale. I'll do that, but I don't wanna sit on the board.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:Mm-hmm.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:you know, there's, I, I hope that we can figure out ways to, hold on, what is it? I heard, um, cherish the tradition and chart the future or something like that because there's, there's ways that both of those, I think can still be a positive thing for, for the community and keep and be able to keep folks involved enough that we can do the business.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:Well, uh, have you ever have those, we're gonna use you as an example.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:love it.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:Let's say there's 12 boards that you're talking about. they ever been in the same room? present in a three minute thing what they do, what their purpose is. Because I think sometime, um, you, you might know that they all exist, but they haven't been in the same room to hear each other echo what the other one does. And it might be come so glaringly obvious if they were together we did something in Inman once called the state of the Town. And part of it was we gave every nonprofit a two minute chance to say not what they did, but what their goals were. Because if you just get into the history of it, uh,
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:You, you've got a six day conference.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:we got a six day conference and it was really instructive to people'cause they had never. Heard all the nonprofits in one setting being described and the community was invited.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:It's a great idea.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:Correct. So, you know, who should come to that, um, meeting with the 12 boards? Should it be just people involved or should it be the community? There's, I think, ways to handle things, but, uh, I'll say this on your air, Matt, you might end up cutting this part, but you either need to be sipping whiskey or be sleep deprived or, uh, have just run a marathon to come up with the best ideas.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Yeah.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:otherwise we just get in this regular rut and it's really hard to see things like, why don't we try this? Our minds are so filled with. Survival in a way in rural, doing the primary things that we don't have a lot of white space to think about. The whiskey induced ideas that might break, old paradigms up and allow us to figure out an attempt at something different. I appreciate attempts, they don't all work,
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Sure.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:but I appreciate a community that's elastic enough to allow trying some new things.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:We'd brought up, and I think I mentioned where we met, was when we were working on the hotel project and restoring an old. 150 year old, I think, uh, hotel on Main Street, Eureka, Kansas, Greenwood Hotel. That, and I wasn't part of it, but that was a whiskey induced idea. I believe. Um, Heather and four or five other ladies that were at the Greenwood County Cattleman's Banquet, I think sat down around a table and, um, there had been a bit of a catalyst, I think within the community, a grocery store wanting to expand or something, and basically knocked the hotel down and they said, what do we need to do? And um, they got on, got on it and recruited some folks. And, and that would be a classic example of a time that that's what it took. It took that passion and that energy and maybe a little whiskey or whatever it might might have been that evening, um, to. Inspire everybody and um, and, and they got that done. It, it hasn't been without its challenges and continues to be so, but, um, those are types of things that I think are worth, worth doing and getting behind. so we in the process created, guess what? Another organization with another board that has to have another set of meetings and we didn't get rid of any of the old ones. And, and that's the challenge. How, how do you do that? How do you move forward and do things that need to be done today and say this means that we're gonna have to cut out something that needed to be done 50 years ago, but maybe doesn't need a monthly meeting today.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:You know, I don't, uh, we're not picking on, on the hotel, but we're using it as an
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Sure.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:Um, but the truth is maybe if they had all the business they needed, not need that board because it would be, become profitable and it would be running on its own. You know what I mean? Um, so. Sometime we need to say, do we need a board or do we need to put money in a marketing plan organization or a business plan, or, or do we need to go outside of the community to get some i ideas or input or infusion of something funds. But there's, there's probably an example in another rural community of a historic hotel that's made it, it might be that a certain chef needs to come to town and, open right beside it, or in it to make the hotel work. the, the thing about boards, we do rehash the same things over and over again because, Between meetings, we're doing all sorts of other things in our life. We're not going around the state or country to find the example that might pry us loose from where we're stuck. And when do you know you're stuck? Is it the second meeting or is it the 22nd meeting? So
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Yeah.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:know you're, you're stuck. So you don't know. You should go out and look for a different solution than just meeting every month.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:I think here we are almost at the hour mark, and you've opened a can of worms that I think could be another hour long discussion. But I think the overarching question there, and to describe for those folks who aren't here in this Greenwood County, Kansas area, the Greenwood Hotel actually is no longer a working hotel, not today. It used to be three story grand Hotel through the late 18 hundreds and early 19 hundreds, and, um, beautiful structure. But today, all we got done and it, it was, it took a lot of funds and a lot of volunteer effort to get this done. But all we got done was sealing the exterior envelope of that hotel, fixing the windows, fixing the roof, making sure it wasn't leaking and falling apart to the ground. And refinishing the first floor. And it's a community events center and people can rent it out for meetings. They can rent it out for wedding receptions and birthday parties and what have you. And it's a great place,
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:Yeah.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:but it is barely, in its current state, self-sufficient. And if we were honest with ourselves and charged ourselves back for the, and I I'm saying ourselves, I'm no longer on the board. My mother is, and so many others that put in tons of volunteer hours just to keep that thing going. Um, I have seen very few, and I'm finally getting to my question. I've seen very few occurrences where a volunteer board in rural Kansas has been able to take a historical building, a, uh, a, a festival, something and get it to the point where I. It can be sustained on its own because it is a thriving business, or it is a thriving nonprofit that makes more money than it spends. Um, how do you get to that point? How do you take these nonprofit, volunteer mindset, um, renovations or, or parades, or festivals or whatever it is that we spend all this time on and get'em to the point where they fly on their own?
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:Well, they saved the building. It's not a parking lot.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Yep. Yeah, it was a success. I don't get me wrong, it was a success.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:But, at what point are we willing to say, okay, if someone came in and had a for-profit plan for this building, would we allow that to happen? You know, save the, the exterior so that banker building missing on Main Street. Would we be okay with that? And it depends a little bit on the personality of the entrepreneur coming in to say, I, I wanna make it into the best steakhouse in southeast Kansas. But wouldn't that be
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:That would be awesome. Yeah.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:for that and.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:And I guess the, the, my overarching question is, you put it on, is it the second or the 22nd meeting that we say we've gotten stagnant? I would say, is it the, the sixth month or the 60th month that we have barely broken even and haven't paid ourselves one thin dime for all the time that we're putting into this. Where do we have to go from here? Do we have to say it was a valiant effort and close up shop? Do we have to say we're willing to run that risk and sell, quote unquote, sell out to someone and know that if that person goes under, we have to be okay with the whole project or the whole parade or the whole whatever going under, and that that is, that's a tough, tough decision.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:You know, here's what I do. so easy to say this. and, and first of all, you know those people who are involved in this and, and you know, they would do it for no money. I mean, that's who rural is. But to honor them, you wanna find a success. So what I would do is put out this RFP of good thinkers and invite people from all over the state, anywhere just to come help us figure out how to, and meet in the Greenwood or on that whittle bench.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Yeah. Love that.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:Uh, you know, to get an infusion of ideas from everywhere and, and state agencies or, or a congressman or, eight year olds or a really energetic group from outside to come see this place differently because I can tell you those people on that board, they see it in a certain way and you want their vision to come true because they worked at this so hard.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:for sure.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:you also wanted to be productive for Eureka, not just now, but for decades to come. So. Bring in a pretty, not just a normal group, you have to think a little outside the box. You have to be proven to have bold thinking. Maybe we'll have whiskey,
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:That's how the hotel got started, that that was one of the first things we had at our meeting. How do we save all the um. Lock boxes that were back in the gentleman's only, of course corral club at the back of the, uh, of the hotel.'cause they had their liquor lockers to where they could keep their bottle of old crow or whatever in there and go access it whenever they were at the hotel. So, but yeah, I mean, it's that outsider's perspective. And the thing that I like about you, Marcy, and we mentioned it just a little bit ago, you didn't say go hire a professional to come in and tell you what you're doing wrong. You said, go hire a bunch of energetic, rural Kansans or rural Americans to come in and let them surface some ideas and then be willing to say, Hey, we'll give it a try. I that power of, outsider's perspective is important. And that's, that's what is good about a quote unquote consultant, but the power of an outsider's perspective. Who has. Seen some of the same issues just in another part of the state or nation or world, I think is even more powerful. And, and that's, that's a great way, in my opinion, to kind of wrap this up and, and talk about just how critical it is for leaders to not just think that they're leading everybody by themselves. There are other folks out there that are having some of the same growing pains and having some of the same frustrations with what it is they're doing or their community is doing. And, and, uh, yeah, the communication and the sharing of ideas, whether it be through, um, you know, we can, and, and, um, power up and your big rural brainstorm and all these different things that you've put together there with the Kansas sampler and your work. Um, they're, they're huge. I mean, they can really, I think, help folks out a lot.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:Yeah, and I, I just wanna make sure I wouldn't hire people to come in and help. You think
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Right.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:people would want to,
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Yeah.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:they would
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:And, and that is a difference. I mean that, um, again, you just, you said if people have that purpose and that passion and, and want to come and help, whether they're within or outside of the community, it's probably gonna be even more valuable than if you hired somebody with a lot of zeroes after their doll after the dollar signs.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:yeah.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Well, Marcy, that's great. Great info and insights and, um, I'm gonna list for folks listening. I'm gonna list, uh, your contact info, if that's okay. And, uh, if people wanna reach out and see kind of some of your schedules. Uh, do you have anything coming up? I know you just had, you said a conference here recently. Do you have anything scheduled on the horizon?
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:Uh, just from the explore side of things,
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Okay.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:big Kansas Road trip popups, which showcases communities in a way that, um, helps them and excites Kansans about being a Kansan. So Kansas sampler.org. But you're, you're gonna say that, um, uh, no, we don't have any conferences. Uh, right now. We do do a logs, um, but just email me. I'll get you on our weekend tidbits list and that'll keep you informed.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:Perfect. Perfect. Well, that'll be great and uh, we will do that and, uh, um, yeah, just can't, uh, can't thank you enough for being on here with us today and all the good work that you have done throughout the time and, uh, we'll keep in touch.
marci-penner_3_05-20-2025_124022:Thanks for inviting me, Matt.
matt_3_05-20-2025_124024:You bet. You bet.
Thanks for tuning in to Practically Ranching, brought to you by Dalebanks angus. If you like this show, share it with someone else, give us a five star review and a comment so we can keep cranking'em out. We've sold all of our spring calving females, but we will have another set of fall calving bred cows available for sale private treaty in the next few weeks. Drop me an email if you're interested and we'll get you information on this really nice set of registered females. And be sure to get our annual sale on your calendar. It'll be Saturday, November 22nd, 2025. Lastly, I wanna give kudos to our daughter Hannah, who got pulled in to help me edit this week's episode. Hopefully I can get her to do the same on, uh, most of the episodes this summer. Heck, maybe I'll just turn the whole thing over to the kids for an episode or two. But, uh, thank you to Hannah and all of our kids who are helping a bunch this spring around the ranch, around the house, and, um, every place else as they finish up with their school this spring. So, God bless you all. I look forward to visiting again soon.
